(03-12-2022, 12:59 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]
I have tended to lump THJ and Bertans in the same group, but they really are not. Bertans is not a true volume scorer like THJ (especially in the playoffs), but he also does not fit into the 3&D group either from a defensive standpoint. Given his current minutes, I'm not sure he is going to be a consistent rotational player in the playoffs.
Our top priority this offseason has to be getting a legit starting center. I am warming up to the idea of sending Bullock for Holmes if that gets it done.
We've collectively spent a good bit of time shipping THJ off for various things this summer. It makes sense. There was a lot of noise about him being available at the TDL. The trio of DFS, Bullock and Green have played well and seem to fit Kidd's scheme. As Tjarks said the other day, the team wants two wing defenders in the starting lineup to go with a center and two ball-handlers. If you retain THJ, he's probably still coming off the bench. Here is what you probably have in terms of locks for an 8 man rotation in such a scenario:
? /Powell
DFS/ ?
? /THJ
Luka/JB/Dinwiddie
If Hardaway does stay and if we acquire a starting center, we have some extra bodies to deal with.
There isn't room for DFS, Maxi and Bertans at PF. Someone either needs to leave or one of the three will have a severely diminished role.
There isn't room for THJ, Bullock and Green at SF. Someone either needs to leave or one of the three will have a severely diminished role.
I think Bullock or Maxi are the most likely targets for Sacramento in a deal for Holmes. Either is a trade match for Holmes. I can certainly see the argument for keeping Bullock (you can never have too man defensive wings). But, I think Green has already passed him as a defender and if Bullock keeps up the 1-for-7's from deep, Green will soon pass him on the offensive end too. As to the backup PF position, I'd just tell Maxi and Bertans that the next one to hit 3 three's in a game gets to stay.
I heard Cuban on another podcast appearance yesterday (Mav's Moneyball). He was gracious toward KP saying he just didn't fit what Kidd is trying to do. He actually credited Kidd with showing him and Nico how Dinwiddie and Bertans might fit and how he'd use them to fill the team's biggest needs. I get that some of that is just PR speak framing a positive narrative. But, there is probably an underlying truth also. I think the key to figuring out the plan for the summer is figuring out what Kidd thinks he needs most and then trying to see either what doesn't fit or areas where we have excess and try to come up with a deal using that. I can make an argument for THJ not fitting. I can also make an argument for Maxi and/or Bullock being excess here while being useful elsewhere.
(03-13-2022, 01:21 AM)Jym Wrote: [ -> ]A Brunson for Robinson swap I guess would make sense if we fall in love with Dinwiddie as a starter level guy
I haven't watched Robinson enough to know how much sense that makes but his impact numbers are great
We don't currently project to be in position to do any kind of S&T. Moving on from Brunson gets you within striking distance depending on what Robinson makes. You'd also need to send another player out for no returning salary to get under the apron. Dropping Maxi's non-guaranteed deal is the easiest path, but isn't enough even if you keep Robinson in the $10mm area. So, such a deal would in essence be JB/Maxi for Robinson in terms of its roster effect. Anyone signing up for that?
If Robinson (or some other S&T acquisition) costs more, then you are looking at sending out salary to a cap room team and the deal is Brunson plus the outgoing player (plus any draft compensation it takes to move that player). All of that was just to get under the apron. Don't forget, you have to make BYC work also. I have a hard time imagining the series of deals that keeps both teams under the apron at all times and satisfies BYC on a double S&T.
(03-13-2022, 07:39 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that something has to give between THJ, Reggie, Green, and the slew of guards. Just too many guys and not enough minutes.
My only fear with losing Reggie is that despite his struggles, when he's on the court good things happen. I do think Reggie does a lot of little things. He calls out a lot of plays on defense. He rotates very well. He hustles almost as much as DFS.
I think moving on from Bullock is highly dependent on a belief Josh Green can provide the same defensive impact while continuing to grow offensively. We often hear the Iguodala comparison, but people try to compare Iggy's second season to Josh's current season. This isn't correct because Iggy spent two years in college. So, the proper comparison from an age standpoint is Josh's current season to Iggy's rookie season.
Here's a bit of a Cato interview with Josh in The Athletic:
This is a cliche question I hate asking, but I’ve struggled to come up with perfect NBA comparisons for you. Do you see aspects of your game in any other players?
Yeah, I enjoy just being me, playing in a unique way. I think that’s what’s cool about it; I play my game to help out the team, and it can look different every single game. Some games I’m going to shoot the ball more than I usually do, and some games I just won’t shoot the ball at all. For me, it’s where can I just be unique in my own way? But I’ve always watched Andre Iguodala; I’ve always enjoyed how he’s impacted a team, especially the Warriors teams, the championship teams, just having an impact on the court and the amount of stuff he does.
I’ve always liked Jimmy Butler, just the way he uses his body. A hard-headed guy, very competitive. I think there’s a bunch of guys I’ve always liked watching, starting with Russell Westbrook. I used to watch him all the time and his aggression going up. Yeah, I definitely say I’ve always loved the way Andre has helped every team he’s been a part of.
(03-13-2022, 08:18 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]If Robinson (or some other S&T acquisition) costs more, then you are looking at sending out salary to a cap room team and the deal is Brunson plus the outgoing player (plus any draft compensation it takes to move that player).
Is there any world where trading THJ to OKC only costs a 2nd? I could see OKC rehabbing THJ and waiting till a contender needs shooting and then flipping him for an asset gain.
Hardaway is an interesting scenario. I mentioned a week or two ago that he has been really engaged on the bench. In addition, I believe he has sat with Cuban too at times from the bench. If Cuban is really the GM of the team, that isn't a bad decision. Now reports are that we were shopping him at the trade deadline and there is a definite bottleneck at his position. I think if he comes back before the end of the year, Hardaway probably takes Bertans minutes. is there enough there for 15 additional minutes? That seems tough.
Moving forward, as DS mentions if Green is ready for an extended role, could Hardaway be kept if we moved Maxi and Bullock for a 4/5 type player? I don't think moving Bertans is going to be an option. No one is going to take him. We will need to rehabilitate him. Need to give him time and not judge him off a rough start on offense. But he could have trouble getting minutes moving forward.
I have been all over the place on who I want as the 4/5 player. I think where I have landed is I want a savant at that spot. A Draymond Green, a Joachim Noah, a Marc Gasol type. Give me a guy who just knows how to play and is a winning player. I am just having trouble identifying that player.
(03-13-2022, 08:36 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Is there any world where trading THJ to OKC only costs a 2nd? I could see OKC rehabbing THJ and waiting till a contender needs shooting and then flipping him for an asset gain.
That is what I have in mind when I mention sending out a larger salary into space. Such a deal if done all at once would have the added benefit of making the total dollars big enough to help with BYC. I need more coffee to think through all four sides of such a deal. Brunson's incoming and outgoing are two different numbers and the same with Robinson. I just read a projection of Robinson getting $12-$13mm this summer. I think there is probably a way to get there, but that needs to be an after-church project.
Would a second do it? Or, would it need to be a first?
Can we get McBride back as a developing backup PG? If you get Robinson at $13mm and aren't paying THJ or Brunson, you might be able to fit Robinson and McBride in and stay under the tax. Is anyone down for THJ/Brunson/22 First for Robinson/McBride? If you get to keep your 22 First in the THJ deal, you could take a PG and negate the need for someone like McBride.
(03-13-2022, 08:18 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]We don't currently project to be in position to do any kind of S&T. Moving on from Brunson gets you within striking distance depending on what Robinson makes. You'd also need to send another player out for no returning salary to get under the apron. Dropping Maxi's non-guaranteed deal is the easiest path, but isn't enough even if you keep Robinson in the $10mm area. So, such a deal would in essence be JB/Maxi for Robinson in terms of its roster effect. Anyone signing up for that?
If Robinson (or some other S&T acquisition) costs more, then you are looking at sending out salary to a cap room team and the deal is Brunson plus the outgoing player (plus any draft compensation it takes to move that player). All of that was just to get under the apron. Don't forget, you have to make BYC work also. I have a hard time imagining the series of deals that keeps both teams under the apron at all times and satisfies BYC on a double S&T.
Robinson is tricky. I thought he was excellent against the Mavs. Other times you watch him he doesn't show anything. He is definitely a guy who intrigues if you catch him at the right night. Stat wise he has had a solid run of recent good games. Tough to tell if this is a jump or just a hot run.
I could definitely see the intrigue. He sort of falls between not good enough for the elite big man pay and better than the 6-8 million big man. The 10-16 million per year center is a tough spot in the league now. It appears most teams want to pay for an all star big man or go cheap at that position. It seems there is a lot of regret for teams who pay that 12-16 million per year for a center.
Non Holmes trades that can be had:
THJ + Second Round pick for Lauri + Dean Wade
THJ + Second Round pick for Nance + Jaxson Hayes
THJ + Second Round pick for Olynyk + Killian Hayes
Now if Detroit wants JB instead of THJ, ask for something more.
The Holmes situation is weird. Last night Sabonis didn't play for the Kings. Sacramento started Damian Jones. Holmes came off the bench and played 23 minutes and put up 7 and 6. He last games are 7, 6,0, 4 and 6 points per game playing no more than 23 minutes in a game.
(03-13-2022, 07:46 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]We've collectively spent a good bit of time shipping THJ off for various things this summer. It makes sense. There was a lot of noise about him being available at the TDL. The trio of DFS, Bullock and Green have played well and seem to fit Kidd's scheme. As Tjarks said the other day, the team wants two wing defenders in the starting lineup to go with a center and two ball-handlers. If you retain THJ, he's probably still coming off the bench. Here is what you probably have in terms of locks for an 8 man rotation in such a scenario:
? /Powell
DFS/ ?
? /THJ
Luka/JB/Dinwiddie
If Hardaway does stay and if we acquire a starting center, we have some extra bodies to deal with.
There isn't room for DFS, Maxi and Bertans at PF. Someone either needs to leave or one of the three will have a severely diminished role.
There isn't room for THJ, Bullock and Green at SF. Someone either needs to leave or one of the three will have a severely diminished role.
I think Bullock or Maxi are the most likely targets for Sacramento in a deal for Holmes. Either is a trade match for Holmes. I can certainly see the argument for keeping Bullock (you can never have too man defensive wings). But, I think Green has already passed him as a defender and if Bullock keeps up the 1-for-7's from deep, Green will soon pass him on the offensive end too. As to the backup PF position, I'd just tell Maxi and Bertans that the next one to hit 3 three's in a game gets to stay.
I heard Cuban on another podcast appearance yesterday (Mav's Moneyball). He was gracious toward KP saying he just didn't fit what Kidd is trying to do. He actually credited Kidd with showing him and Nico how Dinwiddie and Bertans might fit and how he'd use them to fill the team's biggest needs. I get that some of that is just PR speak framing a positive narrative. But, there is probably an underlying truth also. I think the key to figuring out the plan for the summer is figuring out what Kidd thinks he needs most and then trying to see either what doesn't fit or areas where we have excess and try to come up with a deal using that. I can make an argument for THJ not fitting. I can also make an argument for Maxi and/or Bullock being excess here while being useful elsewhere.
Kidd is building something and i agree that following his moves and thoughts will indicate what the summer plan will be. Kidd and his staff have been phenomenal.
The formula he seems to have is: 2 ball handlers + 2 wing defenders + 1 screen and roll big
Ball handlers:
Luka/Brunson/DinWiddie
Wing defenders:
DFS/Bullock/Green
4 of these 6 players on the court. I think we’re ready to go to war with these players at these 2 position groups
———————————————-
Big:
? / Powell
Powell does many of the things we want our big to do. Excellent screener and roll man. Can play team defense. Smart player. How will that translate to the playoffs when teams take away the lob game?
———————————————-
Suplemental Volume Scoring:
THJ/Bertans
To me this is more of the excess position where we could lose one of these guys and get by just fine. It’s a bench position so there’s no need to lock up so much money on both.
Maxi is a special case and could be excess depending on who we can get this summer. He’s not someone who can handle high minutes. He has the versatility to be used as a wing defender in certain matchups. He can guard the perimeter and shoot 3’s (which Powell doesn’t really do) so currently he brings something we are in short supply.
The big question is: what will be the skills the new big brings? Basically if the new big can shoot then Maxi is expendable. If not, then he gives us a different look and Maxi is needed
(03-13-2022, 08:59 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]Non Holmes trades that can be had:
THJ + Second Round pick for Lauri + Dean Wade
THJ + Second Round pick for Nance + Jaxson Hayes
THJ + Second Round pick for Olynyk + Killian Hayes
Now if Detroit wants JB instead of THJ, ask for something more.
I could see Pop taking the Bertans contract and rehabbing his value. Bertans + pick 24 for Poeltl
While we’re at those trades, might as well pick up some Boban/Burke for Okongwu.
(03-13-2022, 09:23 AM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]I could see Pop taking the Bertans contract and rehabbing his value. Bertans + pick 24 for Poeltl
Don't think there is any way that gets it done. I'm not sure that pick is enough to get off Bertans contract, and its not enough to land Poeltl.
(03-13-2022, 09:10 AM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ]Kidd is building something and i agree that following his moves and thoughts will indicate what the summer plan will be. Kidd and his staff have been phenomenal.
The formula he seems to have is: 2 ball handlers + 2 wing defenders + 1 screen and roll big
Ball handlers:
Luka/Brunson/DinWiddie
Wing defenders:
DFS/Bullock/Green
4 of these 6 players on the court. I think we’re ready to go to war with these players at these 2 position groups
———————————————-
Big:
? / Powell
Powell does many of the things we want our big to do. Excellent screener and roll man. Can play team defense. Smart player. How will that translate to the playoffs when teams take away the lob game?
———————————————-
Suplemental Volume Scoring:
THJ/Bertans
To me this is more of the excess position where we could lose one of these guys and get by just fine. It’s a bench position so there’s no need to lock up so much money on both.
Maxi is a special case and could be excess depending on who we can get this summer. He’s not someone who can handle high minutes. He has the versatility to be used as a wing defender in certain matchups. He can guard the perimeter and shoot 3’s (which Powell doesn’t really do) so currently he brings something we are in short supply.
The big question is: what will be the skills the new big brings? Basically if the new big can shoot then Maxi is expendable. If not, then he gives us a different look and Maxi is needed
Currently, Maxi is the only player on the team that can effectively guard the rim. He is our best most versatile defender (just ahead of Dorian) and fits perfectly as backing up the 4 or the 5. Its hard for me to see a scenario where he is not a useful piece.
I think the new big needs to be able to rebound and protect the rim (two things we are in very short supply of) and likely will not be a perimeter shooter (unless we somehow land Collins, in which case Maxi is still the best rim protector on the team). I look at it like:
???/Powell
DFS/Maxi
Bullock/Green
Luka/Brunson/Din
I like the versatility that Maxi can play the 5 if one of those guys are hurt, and DFS can play the 3.
The real problem is that I don't have THJ or Bertans in my top 9 (THJ due to fit) and they collectively cost 36 mil for multiple years.
(03-13-2022, 08:55 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]That is what I have in mind when I mention sending out a larger salary into space. Such a deal if done all at once would have the added benefit of making the total dollars big enough to help with BYC. I need more coffee to think through all four sides of such a deal. Brunson's incoming and outgoing are two different numbers and the same with Robinson. I just read a projection of Robinson getting $12-$13mm this summer. I think there is probably a way to get there, but that needs to be an after-church project.
Would a second do it? Or, would it need to be a first?
Can we get McBride back as a developing backup PG? If you get Robinson at $13mm and aren't paying THJ or Brunson, you might be able to fit Robinson and McBride in and stay under the tax. Is anyone down for THJ/Brunson/22 First for Robinson/McBride? If you get to keep your 22 First in the THJ deal, you could take a PG and negate the need for someone like McBride.
I don't think the Mavs have any interest in sending the Knicks Brunson unless the Knicks are sending back multiple 1sts and/or Barrett along with Robinson.
I did the math before the TDL and OKC was exactly THJ's contract away from the cap floor. They can easily accept him and I don't think it'd require much convincing. Though instead of picks it could cost Josh Green.
Any THJ for air deal lets the Mavs get the non-tax MLE which should be right around 10.2 mil. Robinson's situation reminds me a lot like Holmes last year. We were speculating Holmes could get anywhere around 16-18 mil to start due to his play. Come free agency, the market just doesn't exist for centers like that unless you're a star and he subsequently signed a very team friendly deal right at 10.3 to start.
Robinson hasn't showed as much as Holmes. I don't see the team that would like to overpay for Robinson, and if going down the Robinson path would cost Brunson I'd rather just focus on Holmes.
(03-13-2022, 01:20 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think the Mavs have any interest in sending the Knicks Brunson unless the Knicks are sending back multiple 1sts and/or Barrett along with Robinson.
The time where Dallas gets to command a return for Brunson has past. If Brunson wants to go, Dallas gets to decide if they want what NY is offering or if we tell NY to create the space they need. BYC plays a role here, but it isn't that hard for NY to create the needed space...much easier than sending Barrett/Robinson and multiple firsts.
I did the math before the TDL and OKC was exactly THJ's contract away from the cap floor. They can easily accept him and I don't think it'd require much convincing. Though instead of picks it could cost Josh Green.
Good information regarding THJ and the cap floor. No thanks on including Green.
Any THJ for air deal lets the Mavs get the non-tax MLE which should be right around 10.2 mil.
This is only true if you don't plan to retain Brunson. THJ for Air and retaining Brunson takes you over the tax. If you are imagining using the MLE on Robinson (or some other MLE center) and letting Brunson walk, then you are there. Detroit is reportedly interested in Robinson. As a cap team, they can go over the MLE a little to get Robinson (probably the idea behind the published thought that Robinson gets $12-$13mm).
BTW, the idea here wasn't a desire to trade Brunson for Robinson. It was simply an attempt to marry rumors that are out there...Dallas having interest in Robinson and the ongoing speculation about Brunson and NY having mutual interest.
Not sure if the coaching staff is perfectly fine with a big that is just a rim runner and doesn't have to spread the floor, but if they're looking for a guy that can do both, shouldn't Christian Wood be the ideal trade target. He's expiring, likely not on the Rockets timeline and shouldn't be anywhere near expensive as someone like Collins to trade for. Collins isn't a natural 5 anyway. Great offensive fit and he's got good enough length to be an ok rim protector. Get him in the summer so he has the full offseason to work on his defense. Dinwiddie is supposedly a bad defender and he's looking fine in this system. Length helps a lot. Better version of KP offensively and the guy actually rim runs at less than half the cost.
Maybe trade either Powell or Maxi's expiring + a pick? Or apart of some bigger deal. Not sure how the Rockets feel about doing deals with division rivals. Should have tried harder to get him when he left Detroit. I suppose it's possible they didn't like the fit with KP back then, but that's not a factor anymore.
I like Wood's idea... How would that trade be?
Brunson(ST)/Nwaba at Knicks
Reddish/Noel/Brown to Houston
Wood/Burks to Mavs..
Get us a dynamic 5 that should fit well and a good sized guard who is a good marksman.
Random observation:
In 2022 Boban has played less minutes than Udonis Haslem. 4 min 47s in total. I love the guy and losing JJB showed how important chemistry is but if he stays the Mavs might as well plan with 14 roster spots. By now it is pretty clear that Kidd has no use for him.
Wouldn´t be suprised if this is the Mavs version of the LBJ/James Jones situation. Boban is Luka´s guy and as long as Luka wants him he will be on the roster.
(03-13-2022, 08:35 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think moving on from Bullock is highly dependent on a belief Josh Green can provide the same defensive impact while continuing to grow offensively
I think this is absolutely true, but I believe teams will more likely to be interested in Green because of youth more than skill. I think Bullock has a clear brand as a solid role player. Green still has upside - even though that potential may never pan out. Most non-playoff teams are looking for a player like Green, and honestly, I think more offers are going to float his name more than any other. I think any strong trade for a brand name player has to include Green, Hardaway, or both.