(01-15-2023, 02:10 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]You are looking at a 7 game sample to make your point. He is still a two way player who is better than anyone we have not name Luka, and Jrue is another level above him.
And you're using a season 3 years ago, lol. Are you saying availability doesn't equate to a player's worth? Middleton has all the signs of entering an injury plague portion of his career.
Again, you're arguing little minute details and making distinctions without differences (and wrong at that).
Anyone would objectively look at our roster and see that Din/Wood/Luka is the core, a core that if added to with another B+ player is a championship contender.
(01-15-2023, 03:12 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]And you're using a season 3 years ago, lol.
Middleton was an allstar last season. Maybe not in your alternate reality where Wood is as good as Holiday but in the real world.
I would rather have Holiday or Middleton. I wouldn't see it as a very difficult decision.
It's true Middleton had a knee injury in the playoffs last season, then wrist surgery in the offseason too, and has been going through an extended process to get back to full speed, but he's been a superior two-way player season after season. He was selected to the ASG each of the last 3 seasons and up to the playoff injury, was essentially the same player.
Both MIL players are excellent on defense, far beyond what you can get from either Wood or SD on that end of the floor. And each has shown to be at least on a par with the Dallas players on offense too.
(01-15-2023, 03:44 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Middleton was an allstar last season. Maybe not in your alternate reality where Wood is as good as Holiday but in the real world.
And this year he's what? I'm pretty sure it's 2023 Middleton we're talking about.
and... who gives a shit. This is a theoretical argument without any consequence. You're like a Chihuahua biting at ankles. Point is what is best for the Mavs... are you saying they shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Dinwiddie?
(01-15-2023, 03:58 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I would rather have Holiday or Middleton. I wouldn't see it as a very difficult decision.
It's true Middleton had a knee injury in the playoffs last season, then wrist surgery in the offseason too, and has been going through an extended process to get back to full speed, but he's been a superior two-way player season after season. He was selected to the ASG each of the last 3 seasons and up to the playoff injury, was essentially the same player.
Both MIL players are excellent on defense, far beyond what you can get from either Wood or SD on that end of the floor. And each has shown to be at least on a par with the Dallas players on offense too.
And this matters how? Are the Bucks trading them? This is like a superman vs batman debate, lol.
Are you saying the Mavs shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Din with another player at Wood/Din's level? If so, what is your suggestion?
(01-15-2023, 04:35 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]are you saying they shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Dinwiddie?
On paper how far can a team with that core go? They're missing a 1B guy. Wood is a great 2nd-3rd option, but the team has faltered when we rely on him to be the primary guy (see that OKC game).
Mavs need a guy that we know can carry the team when Luka is off and/or out. Brunson proved he was that guy last season and much to my chagrin, this season as well.
That's what this team is missing. I didn't think it'd be that big of a loss but I think the whole FO is just as surprised as I am. In any case the core that you're referring to needs to improve and Dinwiddie is the primary one to be improved upon (whether that is moving him down the depth chart or replacing him all together).
I'm starting to be quietly resigned to thinking that the Mavs HAVE to make a big trade this season even if it is at the expense of the playoffs. Make 2 moves now and sell off the guys you can for whatever assets then go big game trade hunting in the offseason. Guys like Lavine, Ayton, Draymond, heck even Trae Young can be/are available. Getting just 2 of those puts the Mavs in better position than they are now.
Only keeper really is Green and maybe Hardy. Everyone else should be on the table to build assets. Don't think Cuban wants that though nor do I think he's smart enough to pull it off.
(01-15-2023, 04:42 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]On paper how far can a team with that core go? They're missing a 1B guy. Wood is a great 2nd-3rd option, but the team has faltered when we rely on him to be the primary guy (see that OKC game).
Mavs need a guy that we know can carry the team when Luka is off and/or out. Brunson proved he was that guy last season and much to my chagrin, this season as well.
That's what this team is missing. I didn't think it'd be that big of a loss but I think the whole FO is just as surprised as I am. In any case the core that you're referring to needs to improve and Dinwiddie is the primary one to be improved upon (whether that is moving him down the depth chart or replacing him all together).
I'm starting to be quietly resigned to thinking that the Mavs HAVE to make a big trade this season even if it is at the expense of the playoffs. Make 2 moves now and sell off the guys you can for whatever assets then go big game trade hunting in the offseason. Guys like Lavine, Ayton, Draymond, heck even Trae Young can be/are available. Getting just 2 of those puts the Mavs in better position than they are now.
Only keeper really is Green and maybe Hardy. Everyone else should be on the table to build assets. Don't think Cuban wants that though nor do I think he's smart enough to pull it off.
Thank you for a thoughtful reply.
I disagree, especially about Wood. Only 44 games into the season he's earned a starting role as a 20/10 big with over 2 blocks. He's proven that he can improve as a defender, especially from the helpside.
Din is a tall guard who can play 3 positions. He's an excellent second ballhandler.
IMO if Din and Wood were playing at this level for other teams, everyone on this board would be clammering to trade for them.
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nba/article/ano...mprobable/
Quote:The Raptors now rank last in the NBA in effective field goal percentage and second-last in opponent’s eFG. Their overall lack of depth – particularly at point guard, centre and in three-point shooting overall – is another long-standing issue.
OK now tell me do you guys do Bullock+Dinwiddie+Wood+3 firsts for Siakam+FVV? Knowing also that you're probably going to have to pay around 120 mil for FVV?
I'm leaning to yes just to get Siakam on the roster.
Luka/FVV/DFS/Siakam/Powell is a solid lineup. Find a way to flip THJ for any first and then use it to grab Ayton to be the big man.
(01-15-2023, 04:56 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Thank you for a thoughtful reply.
Of course always my man. You too!
(01-15-2023, 04:56 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree, especially about Wood. Only 44 games into the season he's earned a starting role as a 20/10 big with over 2 blocks. He's proven that he can improve as a defender, especially from the helpside.
I'm not saying Wood hasn't earned a starting role nor that he isn't valuable. It's clear he's the 2nd best guy on the court with Luka. But I'm saying the ceiling of this team with Wood being the 2nd guy isn't very high, mostly because Wood can't carry the team alone when Luka sits. We've seen this team lose to bottom feeders because they can't generate consistent enough offense nor play consistent defense with Wood as option number 1. Of course he isn't the main issue causing these things, I'm more just showing how limited the team is with Wood playing this large a role.
Compare this with, say, Lebron James. Lets pretend he's on the Mavs. If Luka can't play, and Lebron is in charge, are we pondering over if the Mavs can even score 75? No of course not. Why? Well because Lebron has shown time and again he can step up and fill in gaps. Wood can't. That's not a ding on Wood, just a commentary of his current position in the league. He's a 3rd option guy. 2nd option at best.
(01-15-2023, 04:56 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Din is a tall guard who can play 3 positions. He's an excellent second ballhandler.
Dinwiddie is all of those things, but he's being asked to do too much. He excelled playing off the bench (and off ball to Brunson AND Luka) precisely because he wasn't asked to run the offense. Less is more. Mavs need to find a way to reduce his responsibilities so he can go back to doing what he does best. Pick his spots and score coming off of a 2nd or 3rd pass.
Again (and we've all said it over and over at this point), the Mavs need to upgrade the overall talent level of the roster. It seems as if they have no plans nor an idea to realistically do so. It's like they're wading out on a lake in a canoe with no paddle and are thinking "What if we can conjure a spell to magically give us an ore right now?" instead of just using their hands and working together to get to land.
(01-15-2023, 04:35 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]And this year he's what? I'm pretty sure it's 2023 Middleton we're talking about.
and... who gives a shit. This is a theoretical argument without any consequence. You're like a Chihuahua biting at ankles. Point is what is best for the Mavs... are you saying they shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Dinwiddie?
State one thing. Follow it up with who gives a shit about the things I stated. Short-term memory loss or trolling?
No I don´t think the Mavs should build around Wood and SD. And it´s hilarious to sell this as the only logical option when the role of both has been one of the most discussed topics on this board.
But to continue with this intelectual fallacy. If Wood is as good as Holiday. He won´t sign an extension and will ask for money the Mavs probably aren´t willing to pay (based on the Brunson situation last summer). If that is the case the Mavs are better off if they trade him at the deadline.
(01-15-2023, 03:01 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]
Knock, knock.
Who's there?
2023.
Middleton has been injured and awful. Jrue is one of my favorite players (I thought he was the perfect backcourt mate for Luka when NOLA traded him for spare parts), but I would definitely say Wood is at his level right now. Din is a notch below, but we're making distinctions without making a difference.
What is my definition of a B+ player? I already said... on the cusp of being an Allstar. The last 15 games:
Din - 16.1pts, 2.5rbs, 4.8asts, 46.9fg%, 39.3%3pt, .4stls
Wood - 20pts, 9rbs, 2.1asts, 53.2fg%, 38.6%3pt, 2.5blks
Holiday - 16.8pts, 7.1asts, 4.3rbs, 44.4fg%, 40%3pt, 1.1stls
Not identical, but certainly on the same level.
You brought up 2021, not me. You were comparing the 2021 champion Bucks to the current Mavs. Obviously in that comparison we are looking at the Bucks players at that time.
I already explained the big difference between Holiday/Middleton vs Wood/Dinwiddie is defense, and you come back with boxscore stats that are nearly useless to assess defense.
(01-15-2023, 04:35 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]And this year he's what? I'm pretty sure it's 2023 Middleton we're talking about.
and... who gives a shit. This is a theoretical argument without any consequence. You're like a Chihuahua biting at ankles. Point is what is best for the Mavs... are you saying they shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Dinwiddie?
And this matters how? Are the Bucks trading them? This is like a superman vs batman debate, lol.
Are you saying the Mavs shouldn't build around Luka/Wood/Din with another player at Wood/Din's level? If so, what is your suggestion?
You started the conversation by comparing the championship Bucks Giannis/Jrue/Middleton core to the Mavs Luka/Wood/Din. Folks explain to you why that is not a good comparison, primarily due to the differences in defense and your responses is who gives a shit, and refer to it as a superman vs batman debate.
The reason folks are pointing the difference out is because we are not a "B+" player away from winning a championship. If that were the case we would burn a first on Bogi and make a run. A big reason why that Bucks core was able to win a championship without a whole lot of help is that all three of those players can play at a high level on both sides of the ball.
For the why does it matter if we are talking about the Mavs part. Players like Wood and SD are cheaper than players from the Middleton/Holiday tier. Just like other players that are getting thrown into the mix. Collins is cheaper than Siakam but also comes with more question marks.
In the summer the Mavs will have three first round picks available. Looking at past trades that´s enough for one Middleton/Holiday tier player. Could be enough to get into the conversation for Siakam. That´s an all in trade. And goes along with max salary. Meaning that unless the max find a way to dump contracts Cuban will have to pay luxury tax. Something he has been reluctant to do.
(01-15-2023, 05:14 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]State one thing. Follow it up with who gives a shit about the things I stated. Short-term memory loss or trolling?
No I don´t think the Mavs should build around Wood and SD. And it´s hilarious to sell this as the only logical option when the role of both has been one of the most discussed topics on this board.
But to continue with this intelectual fallacy. If Wood is as good as Holiday. He won´t sign an extension and will ask for money the Mavs probably aren´t willing to pay (based on the Brunson situation last summer). If that is the case the Mavs are better off if they trade him at the deadline.
Wow. Who's trolling here? I make the statement that the championship Bucks team are a model for the Mavs going forward, being the only championship team who's had only one superstar and B+ players. Are they not? If so who do you think is the model for the Mavs?
If they shouldn't build around Wood and Din, then what's your solution? You can't just hate without providing your suggestion... unless you are just trolling.
Anything other than reality, your mental masterbation, will be ignored. You've beaten that dead horse.
(01-15-2023, 05:42 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]For the why does it matter if we are talking about the Mavs part. Players like Wood and SD are cheaper than players from the Middleton/Holiday tier. Just like other players that are getting thrown into the mix. Collins is cheaper than Siakam but also comes with more question marks.
In the summer the Mavs will have three first round picks available. Looking at past trades that´s enough for one Middleton/Holiday tier player. Could be enough to get into the conversation for Siakam. That´s an all in trade. And goes along with max salary. Meaning that unless the max find a way to dump contracts Cuban will have to pay luxury tax. Something he has been reluctant to do.
Good points.
Milwaukee got Jrue for George Hill, Eric Bledsoe, three first-round picks, and two pick swaps. Bledsoe and Hill were just filler. We have spare parts at that level. We have the picks.
We have the capital for a Lavine, OG, Collins type trade... without giving up Din or Wood.
(01-15-2023, 05:46 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Wow. Who's trolling here? I make the statement that the championship Bucks team are a model for the Mavs going forward, being the only championship team who's had only one superstar and B+ players. Are they not? If so who do you think is the model for the Mavs?
If they shouldn't build around Wood and Din, then what's your solution? You can't just hate without providing your suggestion... unless you are just trolling.
Anything other than reality, your mental masterbation, will be ignored. You've beaten that dead horse.
The Bucks might be the template for the Mavs to win a championship, but that is from the standpoint that the Mavs need to make a Jrue Holiday trade to get a high level two way player to get us to contention level. We don't have a player in the neighborhood of Jrue caliber and that is what we need. Siakam would probably make the most sense and it would potentially be a similar trade package.
(01-15-2023, 05:55 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]The Bucks might be the template for the Mavs to win a championship, but that is from the standpoint that the Mavs need to make a Jrue Holiday trade to get a high level two way player to get us to contention level. We don't have a player in the neighborhood of Jrue caliber and that is what we need. Siakam would probably make the most sense and it would potentially be a similar trade package.
We're in agreement.
If we could get Siakom for any players other than Din, Wood, Green, or Hardy with 3 firsts, I'm totally game.
I think OG can be gotten for Green, 2 spares, and 2 firsts.
Lavine is probably something like spares and 2 firsts. Ditto for Collins.
IMO we need to focus on PF/SF.
(01-15-2023, 05:46 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Wow. Who's trolling here? I make the statement that the championship Bucks team are a model for the Mavs going forward, being the only championship team who's had only one superstar and B+ players. Are they not? If so who do you think is the model for the Mavs?
If they shouldn't build around Wood and Din, then what's your solution? You can't just hate without providing your suggestion... unless you are just trolling.
Anything other than reality, your mental masterbation, will be ignored. You've beaten that dead horse.
I have offered my suggestion in various posts over the last couple of weeks. Feel free to search for them.
Doubling down on bad takes will lead to people calling you out on them.
I explained the difference in the post above. Level of performance goes along with trade value (combined with upside/potential and contract situation). From your little trade machine fantasies I call tell that you don´t care about stuff like this but the Mavs won´t get players of a Middleton/Holiday without paying a king´s ransom because they are/were on a different level compared to other guys you listed. Just like Siakam won´t be available for cheap. Just like OG or Lavine will cost more than Collins.
(01-15-2023, 06:00 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]We're in agreement.
If we could get Siakom for any players other than Din, Wood, Green, or Hardy with 3 firsts, I'm totally game.
I think OG can be gotten for Green, 2 spares, and 2 firsts.
Lavine is probably something like spares and 2 firsts. Ditto for Collins.
IMO we need to focus on PF/SF.
You are almost there. Now you just need to make the connection between different trade values and the level of player you get. Maybe the guy that goes for three firsts is on a different level than the guy that goes for two or even one.
Apply that logic and compare SD/Wood and Holiday/Middleton. Take a look at their contracts. Take a look at trades that involved them.
(01-15-2023, 06:16 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Take a look at trades that involved them.
That shows that sometimes that you just have to get a little lucky
Middleton was a throw-in part of a Jennings for Knight swap after being a 2nd round pick and averaging 6 ppg
(01-15-2023, 06:34 PM)Jym Wrote: [ -> ]That shows that sometimes that you just have to get a little lucky
Middleton was a throw-in part of a Jennings for Knight swap after being a 2nd round pick and averaging 6 ppg
And earned himself a max contract in 2020. He was 28 when he signed that contract. Is Wood getting a max deal in the offseason? Basically the same age and according to some posters on the same level.