I don't get why we're not trying to capitalize on D'Lo.
Sure the dude is having one of his worst years, but we're 1 year removed from D'Lo being an incredible defensive glue guy for the Wolves last year.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEOoE48p7Oc&ab_channel=ThinkingBasketball
Watch this and tell me that D'Lo wouldn't fit in that role exactly perfectly here. He's as cheap as ever too.
Wolves have made some bad deals. Russell+Moore Jr+2nd for Bertans+THJ
(01-06-2023, 02:43 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get why we're not trying to capitalize on D'Lo.
Right there with ya, my dude. Count me in.
I would do this deal in a heartbeat. No idea if Minnesota would.
Alternatively, I'd happily replace THJ with Dinwiddie. Either way. I'd switch McGee out for Bullock, if they preferred. Whatever.
It also works with Hardy added. High as I am on Hardy, I might even do that if I had to. I would try like Hell to avoid it, but to me this would be worth
either Hardy
or a late first, not both, and not Green.
Unfortunately, I don't think the Mavs are in position to include Powell at this time (or Wood, for that matter, though I wouldn't want to anyway) without making the deal bigger, so the whole "expiring" portion of the potential benefit just isn't there.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2hw6otfr
(01-06-2023, 01:49 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Well, you might could convince me it would be an improvement in some ways on offense, or at least stay the same (but with added athletic ability and defense), so I get the temptation.
BUT, OG will be an "all-in" move. So, where do you go from there? I do NOT believe that will be ENOUGH offense to be a contender. I just don't. I would absolutely do a move like that for Siakim, who would singlehandedly change the shape of this team, offensively. For my money, the offense is what you have to fix first.
I think that either guy would actually give us enough offensively but I want to lean towards the younger one with what I feel seems like even higher upside. I think there's a ton of game that OG has that he hasn't been able to show in Toronto and one of the reasons I keep targeting him is because I think he will want to find a place where he can have that bigger role and show it off.
I also think that his defense is just on another level than pretty much every wing defender in the league. I think that Luka can walk in with 4 dudes from the local YMCA and give you a top 5 offense (our ORating this year is actually better than last years which is kind of wild) so I think the goal should be ensuring that we have a top 5 or 10 defense around him. Honestly I think Siakam or OG would probably accomplish that but I tend to lean OG simply because now you have Luka/OG/Green all kind of hitting their prime at the same time and Siakam's next contract is going to be HUGE so I think OG (while also very expensive) will have a contract that will make things easier to navigate going forward as well.
I like either direction honestly and just continue to root for Toronto to fail, just a preference on my part.
(01-06-2023, 03:01 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I think that Luka can walk in with 4 dudes from the local YMCA and give you a top 5 offense (our ORating this year is actually better than last years which is kind of wild) so I think the goal should be ensuring that we have a top 5 or 10 defense around him
Yeah, but I don't. I can't get there. I do not agree with this, fundamentally. I don't care what the ORating is, tbh, because it
looks broken AF to me, and there's no way I trust it against an actual contending team in a 7-game series. No way. Annonuby wouldn't change that equation for me - maybe on a Carlisle team, but not on a Kidd team.
Further, I strongly believe that the defense is actually pretty decent
when it wants to be. It can always be better, but to me if you fix the offense and get everyone feeling like they're part of an actual good, contending team, the defense elevates significantly almost automatically. Pair that concept with the idea that Kidd seems only to care about that end of the floor and I personally believe the offense is where improvement needs to come.
(01-06-2023, 03:01 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I want to lean towards the younger one with what I feel seems like even higher upside.
I also think this notion is a little overblown. Not totally, but a little.
No matter what, the Mavs will have to completely retool around Luka at some point. If they're very lucky, they'll need to do that twice or possibly even three times.
I agree that mid-30's doesn't do much, but you're only looking for someone to elevate the ceiling of the team during this current Kleber/DFS/re-signed Wood (hopefully)/Dinwiddie/THJ (whoever is left) version of the team. Not only is the RIGHT 27-31 year old ok for that, it might even be the BEST way to go for a variety of reasons. The RIGHT one, mind you.
(01-06-2023, 03:05 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, but I don't. I can't get there. I do not agree with this, fundamentally. I don't care what the ORating is, tbh, because it looks broken AF to me, and there's no way I trust it against an actual contending team in a 7-game series. No way. Annonuby wouldn't change that equation for me - maybe on a Carlisle team, but not on a Kidd team.
Further, I strongly believe that the defense is actually pretty decent when it wants to be. It can always be better, but to me if you fix the offense and get everyone feeling like they're part of an actual good, contending team, the defense elevates significantly almost automatically. Pair that concept with the idea that Kidd seems only to care about that end of the floor and I personally believe the offense is where improvement needs to come.
Do you agree that fixing the offense means having more folks on the roster who can break a defense down and create their own shot? Is the thinking that you feel OG can't do that today? OG and Siakam will be signing new contracts at the same time after next season, is your feeling that Siakam will be a more impactful player throughout the course of those contracts?
(01-06-2023, 01:02 PM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]I agree. Toronto has such an obvious singular draft "type" that it's actually not clear they know how to build a working team.
On the other side of it, they are successfully producing great rotation players from very low picks (Siakam, Anunoby,...). What they lack is a star, but unfortunately it is an extreme long shot to draft one in the twenties. Why they don't bring in a starting level center and PG is still a bit of mistery. Saving flexibility for until they get a star?
(01-06-2023, 03:10 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Do you agree that fixing the offense means having more folks on the roster who can break a defense down and create their own shot? Is the thinking that you feel OG can't do that today? OG and Siakam will be signing new contracts at the same time after next season, is your feeling that Siakam will be a more impactful player throughout the course of those contracts?
I don't think those are the right questions, personally. What I'm saying is that if my feeling of what Annunoby will COST, asset-wise, is correct, then your "team-building" becomes even more hopeless afterwards than it is now.
Only an OFFENSIVE engine/all star type is worth that to me.
Tell me you can get him for one first, THJ and Hardy, and I'm all about it, but I doubt it - right?
This team doesn't need a Jrue Holiday trade, it needs a Kris Middleton trade.
(01-06-2023, 03:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I also think this notion is a little overblown. Not totally, but a little.
No matter what, the Mavs will have to completely retool around Luka at some point. If they're very lucky, they'll need to do that twice or possibly even three times.
I agree that mid-30's doesn't do much, but you're only looking for someone to elevate the ceiling of the team during this current Kleber/DFS/re-signed Wood (hopefully)/Dinwiddie/THJ (whoever is left) version of the team. Not only is the RIGHT 27-31 year old ok for that, it might even be the BEST way to go for a variety of reasons. The RIGHT one, mind you.
I don't disagree with this notion at all and think that age gets overblown on this board when talking about present day rosters but Siakam's next extension STARTS at the age of 30 and may end up looking very awful by the end of it. I would say that going the OG route has many more escape routes if things didn't work out.
(01-06-2023, 03:13 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think those are the right questions, personally. What I'm saying is that if my feeling of what Annunoby will COST, asset-wise, is correct, then you're "team-building" becomes even more hopeless afterwards than it is now.
Only an OFFENSIVE engine/all star type is worth that to me.
Tell me you can get him for one first, THJ and Hardy, and I'm all about it, but I doubt it - right?
This team doesn't need a Jrue Holiday trade, it needs a Kris Middleton trade.
Ah gotcha, we simply disagree on OG then which is totally fair. I feel like he will absolutely be an all star in the near future. Could be wrong but that seems to be where we diverge.
(01-06-2023, 03:12 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]On the other side of it, they are successfully producing great rotation players from very low picks (Siakam, Anunoby,...). What they lack is a star, but unfortunately it is an extreme long shot to draft one in the twenties. Why they don't bring in a starting level center and PG is still a bit of mistery. Saving flexibility for until they get a star?
I think they are still positioned pretty well despite the poor season. I think they had someone on the Lowe Post a few weeks ago who had some good thoughts on the team. I suspect Trent is moved and I wouldn't be surprised if Van Fleet is also moved. When you look at OG, Barnes and Siakem over the next few years, those guys are going to have big salaries. Toronto will be looking for big moves though.
The most important thing for them is Barnes development. I think they thought he was closer to being the guy who could run an offense. He has proven not quite ready. Hollinger had an article yesterday in the Athletic how that hot '21 draft has sort of plateaued in year 2. Not saying they won't reach the heights expected from their play last year, but it may take a little longer.
(01-06-2023, 02:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would do this deal in a heartbeat. No idea if Minnesota would.
Alternatively, I'd happily replace THJ with Dinwiddie. Either way. I'd switch McGee out for Bullock, if they preferred. Whatever.
It also works with Hardy added. High as I am on Hardy, I might even do that if I had to. I would try like Hell to avoid it, but to me this would be worth either Hardy or a late first, not both, and not Green.
Unfortunately, I don't think the Mavs are in position to include Powell at this time (or Wood, for that matter, thought I wouldn't want to anyway) without making the deal bigger, so the whole "expiring" portion of the potential benefit just isn't there.
http://www.espn.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=2hw6otfr
Hehe, when looking at the trade machine, ESPN predicts both teams lose in your proposal.
Do you really think Russell is worth that much more than either THJ or SD (pointing to your line about adding Hardy to the trade)? You are a lot higher on him than I am in that case, or I am higher on SD and THJ, either way. He's also expiring, which devalues him at least a bit.
As far as Min is concerned, they would have to get SD back at the very least don't they? Losing DR gives them no starting level PG, unless you think Ant should be that. This is a big reason why my trade is expanded to include both.
(01-06-2023, 03:25 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Losing DR gives them no starting level PG
I would claim that neither DR nor SD are starting level PG. I think they are more secondary creators then primary ball handlers looking for others.
(01-06-2023, 03:29 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I would claim that neither DR nor SD are starting level PG. I think they are more secondary creators then primary ball handlers looking for others.
I would add Hardy to that description as well since he kind of got tossed into that trade proposal (sort of).
Anyway, prediction that we´ll finally see the first trade of the season over the weekend.
(01-06-2023, 03:13 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I don't disagree with this notion at all and think that age gets overblown on this board when talking about present day rosters but Siakam's next extension STARTS at the age of 30 and may end up looking very awful by the end of it. I would say that going the OG route has many more escape routes if things didn't work out.
Ah gotcha, we simply disagree on OG then which is totally fair. I feel like he will absolutely be an all star in the near future. Could be wrong but that seems to be where we diverge.
I'm there with you on OG. One of the other things to point out is OG won't cost as much as Siakam in trade, so it wouldn't fully be an all-in trade, we would have a draft pick or 2 left over afterwards. Siakam on the other hand would be a 4 first and at least one of Green or Hardy, if not both. OG would probably require one of the two, probably not both.
Going the OG route allows some of our older players (Thinking SD and/or DFS) to be used in trade as well since it would be a win now move for them as opposed to if they're trading Siakam, they might as well blow it up and our older guys are worth nothing to them.
(01-06-2023, 03:25 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Do you really think Russell is worth that much more than either THJ or SD (pointing to your line about adding Hardy to the trade)? You are a lot higher on him than I am in that case, or I am higher on SD and THJ, either way. He's also expiring, which devalues him at least a bit.
At the moment, I actually don't think he is, despite me being higher on him than you, for sure.
But, before your post was one from someone else who clearly thought this didn't offer nearly enough benefit for Minn, which I expected. The reluctant hypothetical inclusion of Hardy was just my way of trying to express the extent of my interest, which can roll with a fairly wide range of what he might actually be worth on the market in real life. You know, since we have no idea.
I'm with you, personally - I can envision this deal or one very similar seeming pretty fair to Minn, especially if Russell wants to come here (and it has always seemed like he and Luka are friends to me). If it feels better to you with Dinwiddie, I'm all over that. Might even prefer it.
(01-06-2023, 03:29 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I would claim that neither DR nor SD are starting level PG. I think they are more secondary creators then primary ball handlers looking for others.
Wherever you stand on this, they lose their primary ball handler and if you trade THJ to them, he doesn't come close to helping out on that. I would argue that SD was much better being a floor general in Brooklyn, so there might be a chance he goes back to that type of play.
(01-06-2023, 03:13 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Ah gotcha, we simply disagree on OG then which is totally fair. I feel like he will absolutely be an all star in the near future. Could be wrong but that seems to be where we diverge.
While OG is certainly desirable, it's hard to see him as a looming all-star. You don't tend to get selected without stellar numbers especially scoring. Nor is he particularly efficient offensively.
I'm also not convinced a player like him (whose primary value is defense) will ever command "all in" offers of picks and players like is being talked about here. While that's the going rate for a proven all-star, it's not what you pay for a good (but not elite) starter. He's a primary player - but not even the best - on a team that isn't even play-in caliber.
(01-06-2023, 03:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I'm there with you on OG. One of the other things to point out is OG won't cost as much as Siakam in trade, so it wouldn't fully be an all-in trade, we would have a draft pick or 2 left over afterwards.
I just don't see how you can make this claim.
Either he's a "near future all star" in which case he won't get traded or will cost MORE than Siakim due to age...or he's what I think he is - a very nice role player who's pretty good at everything who will cost less than Siakim.
Either way, I'm not into it. Unless he costs a LOT less than Siakim. Like, a LOT. I think OG is 3 picks, 1-2 swaps and at least one of Green and Hardy, so that's the price that scares me.
(01-06-2023, 03:37 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I'm also not convinced a player like him (whose primary value is defense) will ever command "all in" offers of picks and players like is being talked about here. While that's the going rate for a proven all-star, it's not what you pay for a good (but not elite) starter. He's a primary player - but not even the best - on a team that isn't even play-in caliber.
When you put it like this, I can see the point.
I still think he'll go for a haul the mavs can't afford to offer in their current state, but might be wrong about that. An "all-in" move for a normal team and one for the Mavs, who are literally still paying for Porzingis, are two different things in my mind. I think the next big one needs to be an absolute no-brainer.