(12-22-2022, 03:54 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]The fact I am so emphatically positive about this trade makes me think it's incredibly unrealistic.
The dinosaur comments others have made would indicate there is more than one side to this question. I actually think it is kind of fascinating...especially from the Phoenix side of things. New owner, so new assumptions about money. They literally have five...FIVE...players on guaranteed contracts next season. Eight are FA's and they have Cam Payne on a partial guarantee. I assume they'll pick him up to be #6 for a total of $138mm. Let's project Cam Johnson as #7 at $20mm?
The way I see the theory here is band-aide plus retooling flexibility. Ayton becomes three useful players (so 8, 9 and 10) for the next season and a half. The picks help with the post-Paul retooling that will happen around Booker, Bridges and Johnson. Someone said it the other day...that combo and Ayton doesn't scare me that much. Such a deal would say there is more value and flexibility to dealing the picks for that next 'star' than dealing Ayton for him.
On the other side of this, could there be a more Mav-like deal. Give up picks...check. Big man who doubles down on the 'better version of Powell' theory...check. At least Ayton isn't UFA this summer. He is age appropriate for Luka and has more of a post game than anyone Luka has ever played with.
Two notes...he's a Duffy guy and he can't be dealt until 1/15.
(12-22-2022, 04:56 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]Bullard needs an apology sir!
Ha. That's pretty good. I think they are 4A though. Mineola needs an apology. I'm friends with a former superintendent there. Will text her now.
(12-22-2022, 05:14 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]On the other side of this, could there be a more Mav-like deal. Give up picks...check. Big man who doubles down on the 'better version of Powell' theory...check. At least Ayton isn't UFA this summer. He is age appropriate for Luka and has more of a post game than anyone Luka has ever played with.
I like the post, overall. Two questions about this part, because there's a bit of snark at the Mavs' expense woven in (which I like) so I want to make sure I'm understanding:
1) Do you think he's a better version of Powell? If yes, is he better
enough to justify such a deal, in your opinion?
2) I would argue that Wood's post game is far superior to Ayton's. It's the thing I've found most surprising (pleasantly) about Wood's play since he arrived. I was expecting him to space the floor well and handle the ball a little, but I actually think he's kind of a wizard when it comes to post scoring, to the point where I'm enjoying post ups again. Do you disagree? If so, is it your take that I'm overrating Wood, or underrating Ayton?
I really like Ayton. I think he is a very good center who improved a lot and may continue to improve. Some instances made me think he is a great competitor and also a good guy. Of course I may be completely wrong.
However, I think that would be a move that would finish Luka era Mavs. Mavs need better wings, not spend all assets on a center. I think it is much easier to find a center that can do a solid job (Powell, Wood) than true two way wings.
I'm kind of coming around a bit on Collins as long as the package for him is centered around Wood and Bullock. I'm 100% out if they want Green or Hardy.
I was reading some Hawks fan comments on Reddit and apparently he's been playing really good defense this year. It's his offense that is broken at the moment. If we could keep him playing good defense and fix his offense, he could be a good pickup.
Really like Jaden Hardy as a second rounder, g leaguer, end-of-bench potential guy. But losing a John Collins or DeAndre Ayton over the kid? Are you kidding?
(12-22-2022, 01:29 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]And I would argue that they were using him in the worst possible way, and one guaranteed not to be successful, right up until other players started getting hurt and forced their hands.
You're trying to bring this back to a debate about whether the onus is on him to learn how the profession works or them to give him a role, just because, only that's NOT where the discussion lies.
What I'm talking about concerns positional strengths and skills, and how they can fit with others. Synergy. Skillsets. I'm fine (and have been since day 1) with them asking him to earn a role, but the role they wanted him to earn isn't one that A) is right for him or B) had any chance of actually helping the team.
He is a center with uncommon athletic ability and foot speed for the position. He's a good shooter, which is worth 100x more when it results in the opposing center being pulled out of the paint. Giving the opponent a chance to matchup a forward with him is DUMB. He has a ways to go to become a consistent defender (not nearly as far as the groupthink here seems to believe, but he's not there yet) but has NO chance to be a good defender against forwards. None. He can, however, defend bigs, play screens at level or even higher, and defend the rim a bit. Those should be the skills they're asking him to become consistent with. That's all I'm saying. If he can, you're back in the game, timeline wise. If he can't, fine - back to the drawing board.
I'm not asking them to give him anything, I just think the game Kidd is trying to play has been outmoded for the past decade.
I'm really struggling with this narrative that Kidd has been playing him in the worst possible way. How so? He has his most minutes with Luka and has almost no minutes with a traditional big. Playing him with Maxi offensively is not any different than playing him with Dorian or Bullock (3&D guys that mostly just stand in the corner). I could see this argument if they were putting him next to McGee or Powell, but that has very rarely been the case (and shit show when it happens).
To me it looks like the Mavs really liked his offensive game but had significant concerns about his defense when they brought him in (thus the Nico comments regarding prove it to each other). Seems like the plan was to have him come off the bench until he got comfortable both offensively and defensively and showed progress in the later. I think there was some issues on that end for a while delaying the move to the starting lineup. At this point the center position is clearly Wood and Powell and Kidd started Wood last night. I believe they will stick with that as long as Wood is putting in the defensive effort.
(12-22-2022, 05:18 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Ha. That's pretty good. I think they are 4A though. Mineola needs an apology. I'm friends with a former superintendent there. Will text her now.
Yeah, I used to coach against them when I was at Scurry...
(12-22-2022, 07:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm really struggling with this narrative that Kidd has been playing him in the worst possible way. How so? He has his most minutes with Luka and has almost no minutes with a traditional big. Playing him with Maxi offensively is not any different than playing him with Dorian or Bullock (3&D guys that mostly just stand in the corner). I could see this argument if they were putting him next to McGee or Powell, but that has very rarely been the case (and shit show when it happens).
To me it looks like the Mavs really liked his offensive game but had significant concerns about his defense when they brought him in (thus the Nico comments regarding prove it to each other). Seems like the plan was to have him come off the bench until he got comfortable both offensively and defensively and showed progress in the later. I think there was some issues on that end for a while delaying the move to the starting lineup. At this point the center position is clearly Wood and Powell and Kidd started Wood last night. I believe they will stick with that as long as Wood is putting in the defensive effort.
You know, "worst possible way" is hyperbolic on my part, you're right.
I think, as you say, that in theory, Kleber next to him on offense should function in much the same way as DFS next to him would. But, while this is only my feeling with no data, I feel like I've seen Wood be the one spacing for Kleber to set screens more often than the other way around. Now, don't get me wrong, I think the versatility that duo presents, their ability to flip flop roles on any given possession, can be a good thing. For my money, I guess I just feel like more of an effort to develop the Luka/Wood two-man game (which clearly has some innate chemistry) should've been made during Wood's minutes to this point.
But that's relatively minor, compared to my problem on the defensive end.
Wood said it the other day, and @"DanSchwartzgan" and I already discussed it, briefly. Wood said some things in an interview about Kleber being the "anchor" and how he was usually "low man"...Dan and I both reached the conclusion that this was another way of saying Kleber has been playing center (on defense, probably not offense so much) when the two share the court.
I know it's not popular to say so, especially today, but this is just not how I would've approached things. My contention has been and will continue to be that asking Wood to learn how to consistently defend at forward is much more difficult for him (and by extension, the team) than allowing him to play center. To me, Kleber is the one with that versatile of a skill set on defense. And, while I could be wrong, I don't think it's a matter of Kidd thinking Wood can't do it, I think it's more about him feeling like Kleber at center
is a big part of what they established last season and being reluctant to view things from a new perspective. In other words, I don't think this role was ever truly open or on the table for Wood, no matter how hard he worked, until Kleber went down recently.
That's the divergence, as best I can tell. We all know Wood's history, how he's bounced around, and that there's probably good reason for it. We can reasonably guess that this has more to do with defensive attention to detail than anything else.
My opinion is two fold: 1) People are taking that and running with it, even when they don't see evidence that he's getting things wrong out there (to be clear, I think he has made errors, but that the state of his defensive issues has been blown a bit out of proportion here) and 2) whatever chance he has to reach his defensive potential, whether it's passable, average, good, great, whatever, I think that path lies at the center position (and I mean on defense, not just offense).
I am not in the camp who wants to gift Wood
the world, or who was ready to proclaim him the Mavs' 2nd best player during training camp
. If anything I was more on the skeptical side at first. I might be clouded, but I sure feel like my eyes are open. In fact, I think @"ItsGoTime"'s point from earlier today about what happens if/when Wood gets paid is a really good one. Something
to worry about, and possibly a reason not to retain him, even. I just feel that what I've seen Wood do since coming here has been better than I expected, not worse. If anything, his offensive talents are being drastically underrated, I think, and in my opinion are worth deepening the experiment to try leaning on him a bit more to see what happens (which is definitely going to happen now, I suppose, with so many injuries).
But yes, "worst possible way" was a bit much. You're right.
(12-22-2022, 05:59 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I really like Ayton. I think he is a very good center who improved a lot and may continue to improve. Some instances made me think he is a great competitor and also a good guy. Of course I may be completely wrong.
However, I think that would be a move that would finish Luka era Mavs. Mavs need better wings, not spend all assets on a center. I think it is much easier to find a center that can do a solid job (Powell, Wood) than true two way wings.
I meant to comment on this earlier, but got distracted. This is an interesting collection of thoughts here. I value your opinion (and @"dirkfansince1998"'s) enough to pause on my Ayton takes until I've had a chance to watch him a few more times. I'll definitely do that.
But, if I'm understanding you, it almost seems as though you think major assets spent on
any center would be a waste of what could possibly be the Mavs' last chance to get the Luka era off and running. Do I have that correct?
I can't dismiss it outright. Porzingis didn't work, and now we're arguing non-stop about Wood. It sure seems like they're stuck on that position and it's causing a little bit of tail-chasing.
(12-22-2022, 08:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But, if I'm understanding you, it almost seems as though you think major assets spent on any center would be a waste of what could possibly be the Mavs' last chance to get the Luka era off and running. Do I have that correct?
Yes. I think major improvement is needed on the wings. Mavs need to build around Luka. This means shooting and creation on offense and guys who can switch on defense. I think most of the centers are exposed in the playoffs on one or the other side of the floor. If Mavs wings would be really good, I would be all over a guy like Ayton. But unfortunately, they are not.
(12-22-2022, 08:33 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Yes. I think major improvement is needed on the wings. Mavs need to build around Luka. This means shooting and creation on offense and guys who can switch on defense. I think most of the centers are exposed in the playoffs on one or the other side of the floor. If Mavs wings would be really good, I would be all over a guy like Ayton. But unfortunately, they are not.
Ok, gotcha. So it's not that you think the position is irrelevant or don't have any use for a great player there, you just have it at a much lower priority level.
Ayton is just way too inconsistent to go all in on. Sometimes he lacks effort, sometimes he gets in his own head about touches and he seems to have immaturity issues on a team with good on court leadership and coaching. If we had a ton of picks, sure. But if we are going to handcuff ourselves, again, we can't miss this time. Remember that we are still years away from untangling the KP disaster.
(12-22-2022, 08:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, gotcha. So it's not that you think the position is irrelevant or don't have any use for a great player there, you just have it at a much lower priority level.
Yes. I think the possible incremental gain on this Mavs team is much higher at wings that at centers.
How about Wiseman? He didn't get playing time on GSW and he had trouble fitting into their style of play. But there are reasons he was a No.2 pick. Do Mavs have a player that would help GSW in the short term?
(12-22-2022, 08:58 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]How about Wiseman? He didn't get playing time on GSW and he had trouble fitting into their style of play. But there are reasons he was a No.2 pick. Do Mavs have a player that would help GSW in the short term?
I trust GSW about a hundred times more to develop a player than the Mavericks. An interesting buy low candidate for sure.
(12-22-2022, 08:58 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]How about Wiseman? He didn't get playing time on GSW and he had trouble fitting into their style of play. But there are reasons he was a No.2 pick. Do Mavs have a player that would help GSW in the short term?
I always felt Wood+Dinwiddie would be a great fit in GS. Also would help that they don´t tank for Wembanyama/Scoot, cause right now it looks like they can´t win any games without Curry. If he´s out eight weeks, they are going to tank again. Unlike the Mavs they value generational talents and rather tank for two months than chase 36 wins.
(12-22-2022, 04:06 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But honestly, do you REALLY think Ayton is worth two firsts?
To me, he'll be a dinosaur in 4 years.
Ayton was the starting center on a team that went to the finals 1 year ago and was 2 games away from winning it all.
He's a switchable versatile defender. PHX fans hate him because he isn't a superstar. He will only give you 17 a night with great defense. That's all we really need from a center. He's also young.
I view that trade as 1 first for Crowder, 1 for Ayton. It's a steal of a trade.
(12-22-2022, 11:30 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I view that trade as 1 first for Crowder, 1 for Ayton. It's a steal of a trade.
No chance I give a 1st for Crowder.
I would give ONE 1st for Ayton, but if I have to give more than one 1st then frankly I would rather run with Wood as my center.