(12-15-2022, 02:24 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]This team without Luka is arguably the worst team in the league. Certainly with lowest upside. And Luka has them at 50 % record. He is far from just a guy puting up big stats.
I feel like I might be crazy. Luka is the sole reason why the Mavericks are relevant. He alone is carrying this team.
To put any blame on him is insane to me. Is Luka perfect? Of course not. But his mistakes are so menial that to focus on them is akin to critiquing an employee who generates 1 billion dollars every quarter but yawns a bit too loudly and takes your favorite mug in the morning.
(12-15-2022, 02:28 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]He doesn't appear to be a strong leader.
He is 23, he is a kid... Not everyone is perfect. So if the problem of the team is a leader, you get one... He doesn't need to be the best player on the team. Just another fail by FO. They tried to convince people McGee is that. Come on, they are either stupid or think people are stupid to buy this kind of crap.
I have been saying the leader thing for years. This is why I was pro Lowry, for example. Or a guy like Horford.
(12-15-2022, 02:24 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]This team without Luka is arguably the worst team in the league. Certainly with lowest upside. And Luka has them at 50 % record. He is far from just a guy puting up big stats.
What is your conclusion to why we are worst team in League without Luka?
Bad Strategy? Bad talent evaluation? Or, both?
I didnt include bad contracts as an option because I think that is further down on the list.
Personally...the team is enamored with stats on paper over eye-test-passing skills on the court.
[url=https://twitter.com/markkanenlauri/status/1096802086732337152?s=12&t=gs7Cn4BNOah4RI32X1FfBA][/url]
https://twitter.com/markkanenlauri/statu...37152?s=12&t=gs7Cn4BNOah4RI32X1FfBA
Lauri making the not so subtle overture. He wanted to be here. Mavs couldn't figure out a way to make it happen even with his contract limitations.
(12-15-2022, 02:31 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]He is 23, he is a kid... Not everyone is perfect. So if the problem of the team is a leader, you get one... He doesn't need to be the best player on the team. Just another fail by FO. They tried to convince people McGee is that. Come on, they are either stupid or think people are stupid to buy this kind of crap.
I have been saying the leader thing for years. This is why I was pro Lowry, for example. Or a guy like Horford.
I think this was an underrated part of Jalen. He was close to most of the guys. They hung out away from basketball. He provided stability.
I think Luka is well liked. But he is like the CEO of a Apple. At times, it can be stressful being around a player as good and talented as he is. I think Jalen provided some normalcy. I remember last year, Luka (I think only once) gave Jalen a really bad look when Jalen made a turnover. That gave me a really bad feeling.
(12-15-2022, 02:31 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like I might be crazy. Luka is the sole reason why the Mavericks are relevant. He alone is carrying this team.
To put any blame on him is insane to me. Is Luka perfect? Of course not. But his mistakes are so menial that to focus on them is akin to critiquing an employee who generates 1 billion dollars every quarter but yawns a bit too loudly and takes your favorite mug in the morning.
Yes, he's the reason the Mavericks are relevant. I'd say his complaining to officials, lack of getting back on defense, free throw woes and sometimes questionable shot selection goes far beyond loud yawning and mug swiping. There a few athletes beyond reproach and Luka is so young, for as amazing as he is, there is room for improvement and that's obvious to see considering the improvements his made along the way and glimpses of an angry/engaged Luka on defense. He's not perfect nor a finished product. And unfortunately for him, his shortcomings will stick out and hurt the team because the other talent on the team gives us a really thin needle to thread.
(12-15-2022, 02:34 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]What is your conclusion to why we are worst team in League without Luka?
I posted a list of all mistakes they made since drafting Luka, and the list is loooooooooong. Comparing with last season, the reason is obvious. Brunson walked and they did nothing to replace him. Or mistakingly thought the guys they brought in will replace him.
Personally I am not surprised at all with Mavs results, that is also why I am not really dissapointed. I just lost any belief Mavs are able to build a contender after last two offseasons (Nico hire and Brunson disaster).
I think Luka being 23 is a poor excuse for not being a leader since he's been a pro since he was 16. He's been a pro for 7 years now. I get that he's young in comparison and he's young in the league compared to American players, but he's a veteran at the pro level. Being relevant with a generational talent isn't really anything to be happy about. Management ruined this team, not Luka. I'm not blaming Luka for this roster's failures. I'm simply saying we would not be a 500 team if Luka kept his emotions in check, made smarter plays and tried to lead his team in whatever capacity he can. If he truly isn't a leader, then he should lead by example and clean up his game. That's just my opinion. I wouldn't care if we had prime Jordan, I would be saying the same thing being a 500 team. He needs to be better and get his team heading in the right direction. Stats are great, but it's the little negative things he does that loses games. I'm not a Luka hater. I love his play and hope he's a Mav forever, but when you come in as the MVP favorite, winning is part of the expectation.
(12-15-2022, 02:51 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]I think Luka being 23 is a poor excuse for not being a leader since he's been a pro since he was 16. He's been a pro for 7 years now. I get that he's young in comparison and he's young in the league compared to American players, but he's a veteran at the pro level. Being relevant with a generational talent isn't really anything to be happy about. Management ruined this team, not Luka. I'm not blaming Luka for this roster's failures. I'm simply saying we would not be a 500 team if Luka kept his emotions in check, made smarter plays and tried to lead his team in whatever capacity he can. If he truly isn't a leader, then he should lead by example and clean up his game. That's just my opinion. I wouldn't care if we had prime Jordan, I would be saying the same thing being a 500 team. He needs to be better and get his team heading in the right direction. Stats are great, but it's the little negative things he does that loses games. I'm not a Luka hater. I love his play and hope he's a Mav forever, but when you come in as the MVP favorite, winning is part of the expectation.
Leadership is a skill that not every person has. Look at the Cowboys, Dak has it and Romo lacked it.
(12-15-2022, 02:51 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]but when you come in as the MVP favorite, winning is part of the expectation.
For sure and if Mavs don't make top 6, Luka won't be MVP. But look what Luka has to operate with. Who is the best player Mavs were able to add next to him in 5 years? Would he even start at any of other contenders? I am not saying Luka can't improve or shouldn't improve, but speaking about his flaws is just taking the focus from the one and only problem Mavs have. Inability to build a team. If they would be able to do that, they might even add some players who Luka would listen to. Dragic, for example would be a very cheap option.
Tatum has Brown, White, Horford, Williams, Smart. Brogdon, who would be second best player on Mavs, is coming of the bench for them. Put Luka on that team instead of Tatum and you have a dynasty imho (I sort of don't like Tatum very much
).
Giannis has JRue and Middleton, both stars. Nothing close to this level of players at Dallas.
Jokic has Murray, Gordon, Porter Jr. Sure, he is out of this world good and he dragged the injured Denver to playoffs last season. But I would not claim that team was worse than Mavs are this season.
(12-15-2022, 02:55 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Leadership is a skill that not every person has. Look at the Cowboys, Dak has it and Romo lacked it.
That's why I mentioned that he can lead by example. He doesn't have to be a vocal leader to lead his team.
(12-15-2022, 03:04 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]That's why I mentioned that he can lead by example.
But this is then leadership
Perhaps he needs someone to tell him to shut up or get back on defense when it is too much. Someone he will respect and listen to.
(12-15-2022, 03:02 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]For sure and if Mavs don't make top 6, Luka won't be MVP. But look what Luka has to operate with. Who is the best player Mavs were able to add next to him in 5 years? Would he even start at any of other contenders? I am not saying Luka can't improve or shouldn't improve, but speaking about his flaws is just taking the focus from the one and only problem Mavs have. Inability to build a team. If they would be able to do that, they might even add some players who Luka would listen to. Dragic, for example would be a very cheap option.
Tatum has Brown, White, Horford, Williams, Smart. Brogdon, who would be second best player on Mavs, is coming of the bench for them. Put Luka on that team instead of Tatum and you have a dynasty imho (I sort of don't like Tatum very much ).
Giannis has JRue and Middleton, both stars. Nothing close to this level of players at Dallas.
Jokic has Murray, Gordon, Porter Jr. Sure, he is out of this world good and he dragged the injured Denver to playoffs last season. But I would not claim that team was worse than Mavs are this season.
I absolutely agree with all this. My only real point I'm trying to make is this team can be better if Luke becomes smarter and better emotionally on the court. This roster sucks, the owner sucks, the coach is having a bad year to say the least, and the gm doesn't have any experience. They won't be title contenders with this roster no matter what Luka does. I just think it's a room for improvement type of thing for Luka.
I don't think a player should be able to reap all the rewards of being considered a generation great, phenom, future hall of famer, etc without the responsibilities that come with that. Look at all the crap LeBron takes and he's considered by most to be a top 2 player of all time.
I get the Luka isn't the problem argument, but I think we can all agree he can be part of the solution. He too can improve in some of the ways previously mentioned.
(12-15-2022, 03:04 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]That's why I mentioned that he can lead by example. He doesn't have to be a vocal leader to lead his team.
I appreciate it but his youth will work against him at times. Dude is passionate and will eventually need to learn to harness that passion into a laser. But Luka is a basketball genius and it doesn't take his basketball IQ to see the disparity for what is around him and what is on a contending roster. And speaking of disparately, we've always seen a different pep in his step when playing for his national teams versus his last few seasons in the NBA. I kind of think his emotional outbursts that are not officiating related are healthy for him and the MBT.
(12-15-2022, 03:12 PM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]I get the Luka isn't the problem argument, but I think we can all agree he can be part of the solution. He too can improve in some of the ways previously mentioned.
I think he'll figure this out. He's 23. Part of the problem, both with this topic and with the state of the roster, frankly, is that his preternatural skills made the team too good too fast. He'll grow into it and figure out how to help the team stay ready to play winning basketball, I'm almost sure of it, even if he's never THE leader on a team.
Might be in a different uniform, but he'll get it.
(12-15-2022, 01:32 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]If losing on purpose was a problem match-fixing wouldn´t exist. We can easily tank with Luka playing 28-30 MPG and the occasional rest game, if we put Green, Hardy, Bertans and McGee out there for 30 minutes. I might also help make Luka feel injured just so he does not have to play with Bertans and McGee anymore. 
The concept of tanking is not the problem. The problem is Cuban.
If Luka had an injury would you seriously bet on this team winning more than seven games the rest of the year?
29 wins guaranteed you the 7th odds last season. That is 15-39 the rest of the way. That´s certainly do-able.
Hilariously I think if you did some of these tanking trades like accepting Westbrook + Bryant for Dinwiddie + THJ + Bullock or Wood + McGee for Crowder + Saric, I´m not even sure the team gets worse. That´s something nobody even considers. It´s not illegal to make "tanking" trades and still get good players. More often than not, those are not players that are actually bad, but rather severely overpaid or coming back from injuries.
I´d be more concerned with our tanking strategy with skilled veterans like Westbrook + Crowder + Saric playing for a new contract than THJ, McGee and Bertans enjoying their retirement contracts.
If we go 15-39 the rest of the way then I'd bet good money on Luka asking to be traded this offseason. I just still don't understand how you keep justifying the idea that Luka would be ok with this with the temper tantrums he's been throwing in losses over the last few weeks.
On paper tanking always looks great. In reality these are professional athletes, not just assets you get to play around with.
(12-15-2022, 04:19 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]If we go 15-39 the rest of the way then I'd bet good money on Luka asking to be traded this offseason. I just still don't understand how you keep justifying the idea that Luka would be ok with this with the temper tantrums he's been throwing in losses over the last few weeks.
On paper tanking always looks great. In reality these are professional athletes, not just assets you get to play around with.
So what. He´s under contract till 2026. It´s called being a professional. Time heals all wounds. Better he throws his tantrum now than in two years.
Also kind of funny that you refer to players being treated as assets being a problem. Aside of me agreeing/disagreeing that this is bad behaviour, the Mavs have treated players like sh*t for decades from Tyson Chandler to JJB Barea to Harrison Barnes and Jalen Brunson. Only players they "treat well" are those they money-whip, so they simply cannot say no to the stupid offers they receive like Parsons, Matthews, Jordan or McGee.
(12-15-2022, 04:29 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]So what. He´s under contract till 2026. It´s called being a professional. Time heals all wounds. Better he throws his tantrum now than in two years.
Also kind of funny that you refer to players being treated as assets being a problem. Aside of me agreeing/disagreeing that this is bad behaviour, the Mavs have treated players like sh*t for decades from Tyson Chandler to JJB Barea to Harrison Barnes and Jalen Brunson. Only players they "treat well" are those they money-whip, so they simply cannot say no to the stupid offers they receive like Parsons, Matthews, Jordan or McGee.
There's truth to your first paragraph for sure but I think as a general rule, acting in a way that you know will upset your superstar franchise player is bad for business. We simply disagree on that and it's fine.
Also, I also agree with your second statement. This org has made a ton of hilariously bad decisions that have also pointed to an unhealthy culture. I believe I made a comment in one of these conversations that tanking leads to bad culture in an org that already has a culture problem (somewhere in one of these threads I thought). I don't think I chose the right words though (asset vs player) because the point I wanted to make is that tanking has a very human element and response to it that I think gets ignored. Tanking teams rarely rebound immediately because they haven't developed winning habits. It's just such a imperfect way of rebuilding that may really piss off our franchise cornerstone so I'd rather not do that if we can avoid it.
It also takes YEARS not just one to build a roster that way. Maybe one pick and then a trade in our case could help but I mentioned this earlier, you're overvaluing how much some of these players can do out of the gate (imo). All the teams that are tanking now are FULL of top 10 picks from recent years because 95% of the time those kids don't make a huge impact in year 1. (and I know we can just trade the pick we get but if we're going down that route I'd much rather win as much as possible with a healthy Luka to keep him as happy as possible then just trade next years after the draft).
Even if the Mavs (Cuban) are to stubborn to accept the situation they should at least try to get some prospects for the end of the bench spots. Right now even the garbage time squad is featuring at least 3-4 guys that are close to or one the wrong side of 30. Instead of going through a list of broken vets they could actually use the 14th and 15th roster spot for development. Or even crazier. Don´t waste the two-way spots on players in their mid/late 20s.
Look at former lottery picks that didn´t make it on their first contract (Sekou Doumbouya, Josh Jackson) or g-league standouts (Kobi Simmons). Unlikely that one of them makes it in the NBA but you cannot win the lottery if you aren´t even buying a ticket. A small chance is better than no chance.