(11-17-2022, 10:35 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Agree to disagree on the "empty calories" part. He's an injury risk, sure, and that's not likely to improve as he gets older, but...people are on here all day every day screaming for more basketball skill and here's a guy who can floor the ball to great effect, make every pass in the game, score from all three levels, has good length and plays defense way above average. In fact, he'd probably be the Mavs' third best defender, behind DFS and Kleber, imo. The amount of ball handling/playmaking in the rotation would be helped significantly. This is a dude they could actually run an offense through, even more so than Wood.
AND, he's SMART. When in doubt, pick up smart players. That's what I believe, anyway.
He's not a bad player, just overhyped and I never understood all the hype when he hit free agency and went to the Celtics. Three playoff series as the main guy for Utah which ended. One series win, swept the other two series. He's always felt like a guy that put up good numbers but really didn't have that large of an impact on winning and that's before the tragic injury with the Celtics.
I'd take him for free or whatever you'd consider the few second round picks we have available and salary matches, but I wouldn't give up any of Din, Wood, DFS or Maxi for him and certainly not a first rounder.
(11-17-2022, 11:47 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]but I wouldn't give up any of Din, Wood, DFS or Maxi for him and certainly not a first rounder.
I agree with this, at this point in his career.
But that's just it - he's one of the few names I've seen floating around that might (
might) not require such a sacrifice.
(11-17-2022, 11:47 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd take him for free or whatever you'd consider the few second round picks we have available and salary matches, but I wouldn't give up any of Din, Wood, DFS or Maxi for him and certainly not a first rounder.
I honestly won't be surprised if Wood is shipped out.
Kidd probably doesn't want him on the Mavs anyway and with the way things are turning up, Wood most likely wouldn't re-sign either.
If Wood is involved, I hope the Mavs run away with unloading Tim and McGee with him. That's enough baggage for Charlotte to deal with. The upside though is they may be able to re-sign Wood if things go right. A pairing with LaMelo would be like a Luka-Wood pair. The potential is there.
Kidd would probably be content with Miles Plumlee included which is pretty sad in terms of return value. But if they can sneak Jalen McDaniels instead, I'd be okay with the trade, not jumping for joy about it, but McDaniels is still young at just 24, there's still room for growth in his game.
Note: I don't expect the Mavs to get Washington even with Wood included for a trade that involves either McGee or THJ.
But I think this works:
Wood+Bullock+Green+Hardy+seconds for Hayward+Washington
But the Mavs better re-sign Washington for what he wants.
(11-17-2022, 04:04 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Thing is Hayward isn't a bad player when healthy. His defense is a little suspect, but he's as dynamic of a scorer as we could feasibly get. But he's been out the last 2 weeks (7 games) with a shoulder injury. He's been averaging 51 games a year the last 3 years, and almost all of his missed games come at the end of the year due to him breaking down.
Unless CHO gives a guy like Mark Williams, PJ Washington, or Rozier, then any Hayward deal makes me queasy.
I think the core of this would have to be THJ for Hayward. Neither plays D, so no give up there. Hayward is a much better initiator and helps with creating O for himself and others in ways THJ just can't. Two of Luka/SD/Hayward on the floor at all times would be a big help. If you could be assured of good health, you probably wouldn't need a 'third creator' outside of bench depth. Financially, two years at $61mm seems better than three years at $54mm. If THJ was a turd, let's eat the turd more quickly rather than nibbling on it for three more years.
To your point, the key to the deal is who else is involved. THJ doesn't salary match, so more outgoing has to be included. I suspect most of us would love to move on from McGee, but Charlotte probably isn't the team to dump him on with all of the bigs they have. That also means they aren't a great landing spot for Powell. In fact, with all of their young bigs, I think we should probably target the one that best fits alongside Wood. If Wood/Maxi works, but only for limited minutes, what is the thing on Charlotte that feels most like Maxi? I think its PJ Washington primarily and Kai Jones secondarily.
I think I'd target THJ/Bullock for Hayward/Washington. I don't know that more minutes for Green and Frank is any worse than continuing to play Bullock. It is just so hard to know how Hayward's injury history and large salary impacts his value. Washington seems like a big ask, but his free agency status probably lowers his value a bit. If that doesn't work, Kai Jones is probably a year or two away. He didn't hit his 3's at all in the summer, but did quite nicely in the G-League last year. There is some upside there. Ultimately, the secondary part of the deal probably ends up mattering more than the THJ/Hayward swap in the long run.
Haven't seen much of GH lately but from what I remember he's more than respectable as a defender. He's no stopper, but he's not a liability either. He's a two-way wing capable of handling 30+ minutes on a good team and a nice upgrade over THJ.
But there are complications. If you start Doncic, Hayward, and DFS you can guard wings and forwards but you need a rim protector and a point of attack defender. That means Dinwiddie likely moves back to the bench. Not a deal breaker but Spencer has been the second best player on this squad. It also likely means Wood comes off the bench. Again, not a deal breaker but a strike against the deal for those who would like to see him get more minutes or close games.
If Bullock is part of the deal, you're probably starting Green. You may not lose much in December but what about in May? Are we really ready for Green to take big shots in meaningful games? Or would you feel more comfortable with Bullock at the end of critical swing swing 3s?
If Green sits in crunch time, it means Dinwiddie is closing games. Dude's a baller so no problem on offense. But it means DFS will be the guy guarding the point of attack. Again, not a deal breaker - he's done it before - but it's certainly not ideal.
In the end, I'd be onboard with a GH deal involving THJ but despite the clear talent upgrade, it's no slam dunk from a roster construction standpoint and the ripple effect could make it a net negative.
(11-18-2022, 08:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think the core of this would have to be THJ for Hayward. Neither plays D, so no give up there. Hayward is a much better initiator and helps with creating O for himself and others in ways THJ just can't. Two of Luka/SD/Hayward on the floor at all times would be a big help. If you could be assured of good health, you probably wouldn't need a 'third creator' outside of bench depth. Financially, two years at $61mm seems better than three years at $54mm. If THJ was a turd, let's eat the turd more quickly rather than nibbling on it for three more years.
To your point, the key to the deal is who else is involved. THJ doesn't salary match, so more outgoing has to be included. I suspect most of us would love to move on from McGee, but Charlotte probably isn't the team to dump him on with all of the bigs they have. That also means they aren't a great landing spot for Powell. In fact, with all of their young bigs, I think we should probably target the one that best fits alongside Wood. If Wood/Maxi works, but only for limited minutes, what is the thing on Charlotte that feels most like Maxi? I think its PJ Washington primarily and Kai Jones secondarily.
I think I'd target THJ/Bullock for Hayward/Washington. I don't know that more minutes for Green and Frank is any worse than continuing to play Bullock. It is just so hard to know how Hayward's injury history and large salary impacts his value. Washington seems like a big ask, but his free agency status probably lowers his value a bit. If that doesn't work, Kai Jones is probably a year or two away. He didn't hit his 3's at all in the summer, but did quite nicely in the G-League last year. There is some upside there. Ultimately, the secondary part of the deal probably ends up mattering more than the THJ/Hayward swap in the long run.
Ok...I can go for this. Hayward is an injury risk and would need to be handled with kid(d) gloves, but when healthy he is good. I generally don't like any trade that would involve Maxi. I'm a Maxi homer...
The tweeted rumor I saw was Dallas might have interest in Hayward and then another tweet that Cha might be willing to part with PJ Wash. Combining that info with the earlier in the season tweet about MJ wanting to shed salary, I see the two biggest cap eaters on roster being Hayward and Rozier. So to me, the trade is Hayward, Rozier and PJ Wash. what do we have that would satisfy MJ?
- We could send back Wood, THJ and SD (the no picks trade). That’s $3M shy of even money in Cha’s favor and future money savings.
- We could send back THJ, Bertans, Powell and Bullock with at least the 2 seconds we have to give, if not a first (28 so we have 3 picks to trade next offseason). That saves them a lot of money too.
- Could be a 3 team trade sending some of our youth out to avoid trading picks.
Razz above has a decent trade involving PJ.
(11-18-2022, 10:22 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...5475739648
Lakers trade incoming!
(11-18-2022, 09:42 AM)ballsrchr Wrote: [ -> ]Ok...I can go for this. Hayward is an injury risk and would need to be handled with kid(d) gloves, but when healthy he is good. I generally don't like any trade that would involve Maxi. I'm a Maxi homer...
You can breathe easy until next offseason with Maxi. Him signing that extension makes him unavailable to trade til after the TDL this year.
(11-18-2022, 10:22 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/TheNBACentral/status...5475739648
I think that is a good bet. It appears Westbrook is playing better recently and the Lakers are still no where near being a serious threat at this time. The big question mark is Lebron's age. Sooner or later, he will not be an elite player any longer and then the real questions will come up. But they will have a first they can trade (Pelicans pick) and will have good cap room this offseason. So they could be in a position to upgrade their team that way. It is all moot though if Lebron loses a step or two.
But right now, all the trades out there for them(I think) really don't put the Lakers in the contenders picture. If I was them, I would look to see if I could move Beverly or Schroeder if it appears this season is a lost cause. Maybe they can get a really small asset back... Beverly is more likely.
(11-18-2022, 10:28 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]The tweeted rumor I saw was Dallas might have interest in Hayward and then another tweet that Cha might be willing to part with PJ Wash. Combining that info with the earlier in the season tweet about MJ wanting to shed salary, I see the two biggest cap eaters on roster being Hayward and Rozier. So to me, the trade is Hayward, Rozier and PJ Wash. what do we have that would satisfy MJ?
- We could send back Wood, THJ and SD (the no picks trade). That’s $3M shy of even money in Cha’s favor and future money savings.
- We could send back THJ, Bertans, Powell and Bullock with at least the 2 seconds we have to give, if not a first (28 so we have 3 picks to trade next offseason). That saves them a lot of money too.
- Could be a 3 team trade sending some of our youth out to avoid trading picks.
Razz above has a decent trade involving PJ.
Lakers trade incoming!
Charlotte is going to make a trade. They need to go into full tankapalooza mode. I would be so mad if I was a Hornet fan and they try to be competitive this year. That team is in no where land even when healthy. Tank and if they get lucky, that team looks a lot better moving forward.
But I would be having a fire sale for all their high priced veterans. It is a sellers market (I think) and they can find takers for most of them.
(11-18-2022, 10:37 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ] Charlotte is going to make a trade. They need to go into full tankapalooza mode. I would be so mad if I was a Hornet fan and they try to be competitive this year. That team is in no where land even when healthy. Tank and if they get lucky, that team looks a lot better moving forward.
But I would be having a fire sale for all their high priced veterans. It is a sellers market (I think) and they can find takers for most of them.
They control (or the new team) PJ’s next contract with him being a restricted FA, so getting full value out of him (or not trading him at all if the idea is to tank for just the 1 season) is not in question. The question is what is Hayward and/or Rozier’s value in trade around the league, not around fan circles.
If the goal is to reduce salary and the Mavs are the trade partner, Rozier almost has to be added to maximize the salary reduction due to THJ’s salary matching (almost) necessity.
(11-18-2022, 10:47 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]They control (or the new team) PJ’s next contract with him being a restricted FA, so getting full value out of him (or not trading him at all if the idea is to tank for just the 1 season) is not in question. The question is what is Hayward and/or Rozier’s value in trade around the league, not around fan circles.
If the goal is to reduce salary and the Mavs are the trade partner, Rozier almost has to be added to maximize the salary reduction due to THJ’s salary matching (almost) necessity.
I would need to re-introduce myself to PJ's game as I have paid little attention to the Hornets. I think he would be the most attractive piece on their roster, by a good deal (Minus Lamelo of course).
The question is who would you value more as the Mavs: Rozier or Hayward? Hayward would appear to be the better fit, but Rozier is probably the better player. You would be paying him similar to the Jalen contract though over the next 4 years. Would this roster look better if he replaced the Hardaway minutes?
I've seriously lost hope on the Mavs making good roster choices with how much Kidd has his fingerprints on stuff. It is totally depressing.
I’m all in on landing PJ from the hornets. Dans THJ/Bullock for Hayward/PJ was talked about in the off-season and still ranks high on my “want” list.
How much are you all willing to pay PJ though?
Is he the secondary prize in a trade? To the point we dont care if he walks after the trade? If he is THE prize...are you willing to give him the money he wants? Because no one on the Charlotte board wants to give him the money he supposedly wants. And it seems like a majority of the posters would prefer to keep him...but not at the price he wants.
Seems as though they think he is decent...but not decent enough to overpay. Yet...they also think many teams would want him...so he is definitely a liability to walk. Seems like a bad situation to be in for an Organization from a negotiation standpoint.
(11-17-2022, 11:47 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't give up any of Din, Wood, DFS or Maxi for him and certainly not a first rounder.
I can't believe you're willing to trade Luka for Hayward.
Jokes aside, very surprised at all the Hayward hate. Lots of folks wanting play making from the wing position but not being honest with themselves about how short a list of NBA players that is and Hayward is on it. He's a passable and smart defender as well. If you can get him while still saving first round picks for this offseason you absolutely do it.