(01-06-2023, 06:57 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'll listen when I get a chance, but what's the THJ idea?
Fisher says THJ is available for the right price. Cavs are interested and if it would be their choice, it would be between Bojan Bogdanovic (Detroit) and THJ.
They can't offer a FRP. So best asset is LeVert. Reluctant to include Okoro unless it is a very good trade - not clear who would that be. Other than that is basically just SRP. Speakers think LeVert could be the right asset for THJ as Dallas could use more ballhandling, plus he is expiring.
My comment: I am not sure about that. Mavs don't need a half a season rental, they just get worse again and it would be just a cost cutting move Mavs can't really afford to make, if they want to contend. Even if LeVert would be here to stay and resign, I am not sure if he is the long term solution. Seems just another 6th man type player, Mavs have plenty already.
I would want to include McGee, since Cleveland is a buyer in this case and they should pay the premium. Perhaps something like:
Cle: THJ, McGee
Dal: LeVert, Windler, Lopez
Mavs get the vet min third string center, they get half a year of look at Windler, if there is anything left after all those injuries, and they get half a year to assess LeVert.
(01-06-2023, 07:21 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Fisher says THJ is available for the right price. Cavs are interested.
They can't offer a FRP. So best asset is LeVert. plus he is expiring.
Sounds like a Mark Cuban trade. Maybe he can afford to pay Wood if THJ’s salary is off the books.
Mavs offered the Pacers THJ and a pick back then.
And back then they still have JB.
So there's is interest there and not just the Cavs.
If the Cavs are offering Levert straight up, the Mavs should bite.
It's a fair trade.
Wouldn't hurt though if the Mavs try to expand the trade to include McGee or Reggie.
But if it's straight-up deal, I'm all for it.
- Levert is better defensively, albeit not by much.
- THJ is the better shooter only by reputation, because he couldn't do anything else.
- Levert gives the Mavs 3 capable playmakers. And all of them 6'5" or taller!
- Yes, this could be a rental, but THJ (at least to me) isn't exactly a player you hold on to. Let's switch statuses of Caris and THJ, if THJ is to expire this off-season, I'd be happy to see him walk.
- Levert is the more talented player, but the Cavs (from what I have read) would like to have a starting SF. I'm not even sure THJ should start for the Mavs, but if Cleveland thinks THJ is adequate, then it's all good for the Mavs.
- Levert is the better rebounder, one more point against THJ for the mistake of thinking he's the better SF (better not tell the Cavs).
LaVert is one of those guys about whom the idea is better than the reality. I'm not sure he's any better than Hardaway, all things considered. Probably why this trade is being discussed.
I can see it for solely financial reasons, I suppose, and if something like this is what it takes to re-sign Wood, then maybe I could get talked into it.
But I'm saying it now, LaVert would be just as hated as Hardaway in under a month. I think this move might lower this year's ceiling, for those who care about such a thing.
Having said all of that...if you tell me Dinwiddie MUST be a starter, which might be where Kidd is with things, I imagine LaVert might be a better fit next to him AND Luka, simultaneously. Might be.
(01-06-2023, 08:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I suppose, and if something like this is what it takes to re-sign Wood, then maybe I could get talked into it.
But I'm saying it now, LaVert would be just as hated as Hardaway in under a month.
Right on Wood.
Actually wanted to say that, but settled for an implied "ïf Levert walks it's okay" (where the Mavs can spend on Wood instead).
And also-- you're right on Levert's play.
He isn't anything special, probably would hate his shot selection too.
He's someone who can do more, but doesn't.
Frustrating most times.
But (at least for me) the Mavs are still lacking in a playmaker. Wright can't score although he can handle. Same with Frankie. Kemba's waived. So the Mavs are still only with Luka and Dinwiddie basically. If the Mavs can ship off Bullock instead of THJ, then I'm more okay with that. But the point is -- this team is in dire need of someone who can dribble and score in a variety of ways instead of shooting 3s and in THJ's case (goofy hail mary layups).
(01-06-2023, 08:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But I'm saying it now, LaVert would be just as hated as Hardaway in under a month. I think this move might lower this year's ceiling, for those who care about such a thing.
Zero chance.
LacVert is much better with the ball in his hands. The issue is his injury history.
(01-06-2023, 09:12 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]LacVert is much better with the ball in his hands.
That's true, but I'm telling you this is a player I've watched a fair amount. He's nowhere near as good as you think (or as I thought) from afar.
(01-06-2023, 09:39 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's true, but I'm telling you this is a player I've watched a fair amount. He's nowhere near as good as you think (or as I thought) from afar.
You could have said the same thing about Dinwiddie. Don't underestimate the Luka bump. I still think LaVert was the prize of that Nets duo.
(01-06-2023, 08:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]LaVert is one of those guys about whom the idea is better than the reality. I'm not sure he's any better than Hardaway, all things considered. Probably why this trade is being discussed.
I can see it for solely financial reasons, I suppose, and if something like this is what it takes to re-sign Wood, then maybe I could get talked into it.
But I'm saying it now, LaVert would be just as hated as Hardaway in under a month. I think this move might lower this year's ceiling, for those who care about such a thing.
Having said all of that...if you tell me Dinwiddie MUST be a starter, which might be where Kidd is with things, I imagine LaVert might be a better fit next to him AND Luka, simultaneously. Might be.
I tend to agree that LeVert is no savior. But, I would probably be in favor of the deal straight up (which keeps Cleveland about a Tesla under the LT). Number one, he’s a ball mover. Hardaway isn’t. Nuff said. Two, if you let him expire and replace his money with Wood, then Dallas is a bit under the cap in the summer (not counting LeVert or Powell holds or minimum roster slots). Might get you Wood plus a full MLE player depending on what else happens.
Three, he can be signed and traded this summer…heck, could be traded again before the deadline for a team wanting a pure expiring (right now we can’t really afford to give up Powell and Reggie isn’t a pure expiring). He’s a direct match for John Collins. Four, he’d probably come off the bench opening a slot for Green to start. I think we are at a place where moving THJ back to the bench would be problematic. Five, CL can actually get to the basket and finish….613 vs. .511 for THJ from 0-3 feet. THJ Drives have been an adventure.
Wood/DFS/Green/SD/Luka backed up by LeVert, Reggie, Maxi and Powell. We’d still have to separate Luka and Dinwiddie, but we could get back to always having at least two guards who can create. You are probably giving up a little three point shooting in the exchange.
Hardaway - Levert feels something with potential to be a real deal. Mavs might even ask for (and get) a side tip of some sort, since Levert's value is reduced by the fact he's a rental (while THJ is on a reasonably-priced contract that declines from year to year).
I do see hidden value for the Mavs in Levert's much better playmaking ability, in light of Mavs' need for such.
Whether this would create a hole depends on how you view THJ's ability to be that needed shooter for Luka. CLE sees what so many here see, which is THJ being a real plus factor in games when he gets hot and hits lots of 3s. Personally, I see him as quite overrated, because imo there are way too many crappy outings per good one, so I'd be very open to move on and get out from under the contract (and try to fill that need elsewhere).
(01-06-2023, 11:07 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I tend to agree that LeVert is no savior. But, I would probably be in favor of the deal straight up (which keeps Cleveland about a Tesla under the LT). Number one, he’s a ball mover. Hardaway isn’t. Nuff said. Two, if you let him expire and replace his money with Wood, then Dallas is a bit under the cap in the summer (not counting LeVert or Powell holds or minimum roster slots). Might get you Wood plus a full MLE player depending on what else happens.
Three, he can be signed and traded this summer…heck, could be traded again before the deadline for a team wanting a pure expiring (right now we can’t really afford to give up Powell and Reggie isn’t a pure expiring). He’s a direct match for John Collins. Four, he’d probably come off the bench opening a slot for Green to start. I think we are at a place where moving THJ back to the bench would be problematic. Five, CL can actually get to the basket and finish….613 vs. .511 for THJ from 0-3 feet. THJ Drives have been an adventure.
Wood/DFS/Green/SD/Luka backed up by LeVert, Reggie, Maxi and Powell. We’d still have to separate Luka and Dinwiddie, but we could get back to always having at least two guards who can create. You are probably giving up a little three point shooting in the exchange.
You make some great points here.
I'm not sure I grasp the logic of the emboldened, but I agree with everything else.
(01-07-2023, 12:16 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]You make some great points here.
I'm not sure I grasp the logic of the emboldened, but I agree with everything else.
I agree, but I think it might be for a different reason. With THJ outgoing, that leaves a spot in the starting lineup. If the ultimate goal is to put SD back on the bench, this move could do that. Add Green and CL to the starting lineup and bring SD off the bench. We would have Luka with 3 secondary ball movers in CL, Green and Wood with DFS as the spot up shooter (if he can step up this aspect of his game I think the starters are good enough).
One thing about DS’s post. Could just make it a 3 team trade.
Cavs get: THJ
Hawks get: Levert/Bullock
Mavs get: Collins
Saves Cuban a butt ton of LT this year.
Luka/SD/DFS/Collins/Wood
Wright/Hardy/Green/Maxi/Powell
Frank/Bertans/McGee
We would have 2 roster spots to shore up the bench and supplant Wright and Hardy. Would be nice to get a useable player from the trade for that purpose.
(01-07-2023, 12:16 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]You make some great points here.
I'm not sure I grasp the logic of the emboldened, but I agree with everything else.
I think it will be difficult to move Hardaway back to the bench given the success he’s had since becoming a starter. We don’t have any history with LeVert and don’t owe him a starting spot. He’s not starting currently.
If you are thinking Green could take out Dinwiddie instead, I just don’t see it. The formula we used last season was three ball handlers (Luka, SD and LeVert as proposed) with two on at all times. The top nine would also include three defensive wings (DFS, Green and Reggie) and what will hopefully be three bigs when Maxi returns (only two last year). It feels more balanced and part of why is Green is at a point where he can take a bigger role.
Other notes, LeVert and Dinwiddie were teammates for parts of three seasons in Brooklyn. He’s a CAA client in case you are thinking ahead to the summer. If you are wondering about the motivation of the Cav’s, Cleveland isn’t exactly a Free Agent hot spot. They would be heading into the summer needing to deal with both the LeVert expiring and the Love expiring. This fills one of the slots with someone who is cost controlled for a couple more years. I heard someone say months ago on one of the podcasts I listen to that Cleveland would deal LeVert at some point because they couldn’t afford to lose him for nothing. Recall they gave up a first for him when they traded injured Rubio for him last season.
(01-07-2023, 02:54 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think it will be difficult to move Hardaway back to the bench given the success he’s had since becoming a starter. We don’t have any history with LeVert and don’t owe him a starting spot. He’s not starting currently.
If you are thinking Green could take out Dinwiddie instead, I just don’t see it. The formula we used last season was three ball handlers (Luka, SD and LeVert as proposed) with two on at all times. The top nine would also include three defensive wings (DFS, Green and Reggie) and what will hopefully be three bigs when Maxi returns (only two last year). It feels more balanced and part of why is Green is at a point where he can take a bigger role.
Other notes, LeVert and Dinwiddie were teammates for parts of three seasons in Brooklyn. He’s a CAA client in case you are thinking ahead to the summer. If you are wondering about the motivation of the Cav’s, Cleveland isn’t exactly a Free Agent hot spot. They would be heading into the summer needing to deal with both the LeVert expiring and the Love expiring. This fills one of the slots with someone who is cost controlled for a couple more years. I heard someone say months ago on one of the podcasts I listen to that Cleveland would deal LeVert at some point because they couldn’t afford to lose him for nothing. Recall they gave up a first for him when they traded injured Rubio for him last season.
The problem I have with all this is, that LeVert doesn't make us a contender this season. Short term outlook is thus irelevant for me. On the long term all we basically get is we get rid of THJ contract. But, that contract could be used in the summer in a trade for the right player. The right player is imho a two way wing and I think THJ would fit better next to him than LeVert - basically exactly why Cavs prefer a guy like THJ than a guy like LeVert.
Mavs are in a totally same situation as Cavs - they are not a FA destination. This trade makes them deal with Wood and LeVert resigning or extensions. Even if we manage to resign them both, the contracts available for trade in the summer are reduced to Bertans and Bullock, before we dip into core players such as DFS and Maxi.
I think a scenario where Mavs resign Wood but LeVert walks is a loss for Mavs. I rather keep THJ. The only winner here would be Cubans wallet.
I don't agree at all, that LeVert would be brought as a bench guy. Perhaps that might happen, but it would take games before getting there. If Mavs would see LeVert as a bench guy, than it makes even less sense for a straight up THJ-LeVert trade. Mavs giving up a starter while getting a 6th man.
So all things considered, I think THJ-LeVert doesn't make Mavs contender and gives them less flexibility in the summer. I would want more. I agree with some ideas, that a three team deal would be best, because LeVerts expiring could be valuable for another team. Just not sure Collins is the right target.
Few weeks behind listening to Lowe Post Podcasts. On the one from December 19th, they talk Raptors at the end. He thought the Raptors would stabilize (they have not yet) and he expected they move Trent. He said the Raptors have no intention of moving OG. He said if they did, everyone in the league wants OG. He said the trade package would be similar to what the Cavs gave up for Mitchell. At least in that range.
(01-07-2023, 05:39 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]The problem I have with all this is, that LeVert doesn't make us a contender this season. Short term outlook is thus irelevant for me. On the long term all we basically get is we get rid of THJ contract.
If Mavs would see LeVert as a bench guy, than it makes even less sense for a straight up THJ-LeVert trade. Mavs giving up a starter while getting a 6th man.
Keeping THJ doesn’t make them a contender either, so that probably isn’t the standard. Does this even out the roster filling an obvious hole? Yeah. In fact, it kind of replicates what we did last season in the playoffs. We basically trade Brunson for Wood/LeVert and get a new and improved version of Josh. Otherwise, the roster is the same since THJ wasn’t part of that run. Three ball handlers, three 3&D wings (with Josh promoted and Reggie demoted) and you’ve added Wood to Maxi and Powell. ST results do matter and I think this makes us just a bit more competitive while we wait until the summer to unlock our draft assets.
I don’t know who would start between SD and LeVert. I suspect LeVert would ease his way into things by coming off the bench. There are 96 minutes at the 1/2. If Luka takes 36, then the other two can split up to 60. There will be plenty of time to figure out which one fits best with Luka. SD has played well with Powell, so I can see them coming off the bench together. But, SD is also the better catch-and-shoot player, which fits well with Luka. SD and LeVert were a +4.3 when together in 19/20. They were a negative pairing the year before that.
It should have been inferred, but in all of the various ways the LeVert contract might be used, the one I didn’t specifically mention was that he could be kept. He’s in the same situation as Wood having signed a 3 year deal the same summer. He’s also got the same 120% cap on any extension.
(01-07-2023, 09:24 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Does this even out the roster filling an obvious hole?
Not sure that it does. "Mediocre SF" isn't really on my list of holes.
All for trading Hardaway in a deal for a
better player, don't get me wrong, but I don't think that's what this is. If they did this, I think the only true positive is the financial side. And that's going to result in one fewer player next year from our perspective, although I did like your thought about sign-and-trading him, I suppose.
I'm not even saying I wouldn't do it. Would just suck for the trade to be for a player I don't want them to KEEP. As a fan, that would kind of bum me out.
(01-07-2023, 09:24 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]don’t know who would start between SD and LeVert
I assume both would start.
an expansion on the THJ/CL trade
I don't think CL would be an upgrade over THJ and due to his need for the ball and suspect outside shooting, i don't see that the "luka effect" is applicable to him. so i would try to include Charlotte in the deal
Cavs get THJ
Hornets get CL, Bullock & Bertans
Mavs get Hayward & Rozier
Cavs get more shooting and a slightly better fit with their guards
Hornets clear a ton of money (around 5-6mil this year and almost 30mil next year)
Mavs get better defensively, better playmaking and helps their books.
not sure if Jordan is in for the tank like that but maybe LaMello and CL are a decent fit and Bullock is the type of defender/shooter they need. idk.