(12-08-2022, 12:17 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn’t think we would have anything of interest. Wouldn’t give up an asset or Powell. Doubt they would want the years on McGee contract.
https://www.hoopsrumors.com/2022/12/mavs...-noel.html
Been hoping for this ... Noel is one of my top realistic acquisition targets.
About Noel “That’s who he is,’’ Thibodeau said. “We probably overlook all the other aspects of his defense because we always talk about the rim protection, which is obviously elite, but his pick-and-roll defense is terrific, as well. Just the way he can fly all over the court, he’s got great length, and it gives your team energy. And when you get into the open floor off that stuff, that gets everyone feeling good and easy buckets. It changes things.’’
McGee and Ntilikina works after December 15th. McGee provides veteran leadership and winning pedigree. Frank still has some upside but he needs to play. I think could crack the Pistons' rotation and it makes more sense for DET to try to develop a big guard than give all the backup minutes to Cory Joseph. The contract situation with McGee isn't a big deal ... DET payroll would actually decline this year, and Frank is a FA. McGee has two years left but DET has to reach the salary minimum next year so they'll have to pay someone. Why not McGee, a hard working big with championship pedigree?
I love Noel in Dallas. He may be better suited to play the role Kidd envisioned for McGee than McGee himself.
DET could also use some shooting. Bertans+Frank <--> Joseph+Noel ?
Similar to Omahen’s trade, I’m thinking about not giving up Hardy or Green (although I think that will be s sticking point) and making an even player amount in trade.
Barton, Rui and Gafford for Wood, Frank, Pinson and 1-2 seconds
I think Wood would fit in fairly nicely with KP and Kuzma off the bench. Gives them $4M immediately to stay away from the tax and all are expiring.
The Noel idea makes some sense if you look at who we're playing at PF/C right now and what our weaknesses are. We need someone that could play the McGee role (defensive rebounds, screens and roll to the basket, protect the paint). For that, McGee has to be part of the outgoing package, as he absolutely stunk since he got here.
Right now I'm thorn because I want to keep all of Powell/Kleber/Wood, but I'm not sure there will be minutes if a 4th big comes in (especially if we intend to keep playing DFS at PF). Would be nice to have an option that doesn't kill you and can rebound the ball (having only Wood and Luka rebound will hurt us).
I'm only moving Wood for a guy that's better than him, but really don't want to add much to that package in terms of assets untill the summer. So I'm out on giving up positive value package (which would have to include rotation guys/Green/Hardy/picks) like Collins/Poeltl/Turner.
There's no way the Mavs should take in Gafford without unloading McGee.
A second round pick from the Wiz to the Mavs for compensation would be fair.
But would settle for this:
Gafford + Barton for McGee and Bullock.
No need for Frankie to go on this one.
On any other team, probably Gafford's not going to get minutes, but in this Mavs team, he just needs to be functional to get playing time. Give him a season with the Mavs and he'd slide into the DP role. Overpaid? most likely, but better than a wasted roster spot in McGee that gives you nothing.
(12-08-2022, 05:43 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Been hoping for this ... Noel is one of my top realistic acquisition targets.
About Noel “That’s who he is,’’ Thibodeau said. “We probably overlook all the other aspects of his defense because we always talk about the rim protection, which is obviously elite, but his pick-and-roll defense is terrific, as well. Just the way he can fly all over the court, he’s got great length, and it gives your team energy. And when you get into the open floor off that stuff, that gets everyone feeling good and easy buckets. It changes things.’’
I really like the
idea of Noel. I want him to be the defensive difference-maker, and above the rim high-flying roll man, and be available.
But those words from Thibs seem suspect, when you consider he didn't get playing time for Thibs. Often completely inactive. Same thing in DET (he's played 62 mins total all season!). When combined with his previous track record as a Mav, I'd be inclined to look elsewhere.
(12-08-2022, 01:40 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I was the biggest fan of that acquisition when it first happened, but after watching how it played out...please, no.
I guess it would take a year of McGee away from the books if he's included, so maybe under some very specific and favorable deal circumstances, including McGee being outgoing, but I would not be excited about Noel.
I was also the biggest fan of that acquisition when it first happened, but after watching how it played out...please, YES.
(12-08-2022, 10:01 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I really like the idea of Noel. I want him to be the defensive difference-maker, and above the rim high-flying roll man, and be available.
But those words from Thibs seem suspect, when you consider he didn't get playing time for Thibs. Often completely inactive. Same thing in DET (he's played 62 mins total all season!). When combined with his previous track record as a Mav, I'd be inclined to look elsewhere.
Absolutely right. Noel is the right type of player, physically. Ideal, in theory. Long enough, athletic and fast for his size, not one of these bulky dinosaurs who can't hang today.
But, and I don't know what it is, he just doesn't play well consistently. He turned down that big extension offer from Dallas (thank goodness) and hasn't really fit in anywhere since.
EDIT: having said all of that, I’d rather have him than McGee if that’s the best they can do.
(12-08-2022, 10:01 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I really like the idea of Noel. I want him to be the defensive difference-maker, and above the rim high-flying roll man, and be available.
But those words from Thibs seem suspect, when you consider he didn't get playing time for Thibs. Often completely inactive. Same thing in DET (he's played 62 mins total all season!). When combined with his previous track record as a Mav, I'd be inclined to look elsewhere.
Inclined to look elsewhere but that seems like the exact type of player the Mavs can afford.
(12-08-2022, 10:54 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Absolutely right. Noel is the right type of player, physically. Ideal, in theory. Long enough, athletic and fast for his size, not one of these bulky dinosaurs who can't hang today.
But, and I don't know what it is, he just doesn't play well consistently. He turned down that big extension offer from Dallas (thank goodness) and hasn't really fit in anywhere since.
EDIT: having said all of that, I’d rather have him than McGee if that’s the best they can do.
Most if not all of this discussion seems to stem from what appears to be a significant miscalculation at this point on how Javale Mcgee would fit with this Mavs roster.
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/ja...view-radio
Quote:"I think with JaVale, we're waiting for JaVale to be JaVale," said Harrison. "But, part of the reason why we brought him in, this guy has won three championships over the last four years. Definitely a veteran presence and he's been in the league a long time so we're also not trying to burn him out in the first part of the season. He's the guy that you're going to need down the stretch.
Its true. McGee not only has significantly contributed to 3 championship rosters, but was seen as a big positive in Phoenix too:
https://www.nba.com/news/suns-view-javal...hip-puzzle
Quote:Yet, the Suns still went 7-1 when Ayton sat out with various ailments partly because of McGee’s presence. So much that Ayton described McGee as “the best backup I’ve ever had.” McGee has averaged 10.8 points on 66% shooting along with 7.6 rebounds in 16 minutes off the bench.
If McGee maintains those numbers, the Suns said he would become the first player in NBA history to average at least 10 points and seven rebounds while playing fewer than 16 minutes per game in a season.
So what has happened to Javale McGee's game in such a short time in Dallas?
System fit seems the most prominent issue because he was not an unproductive dinosaur center even with the GSW. How is the fit sooo bad? Curiouser and curiouser ...
(12-09-2022, 06:38 AM)Dahlsim Wrote: [ -> ]Most if not all of this discussion seems to stem from what appears to be a significant miscalculation at this point on how Javale Mcgee would fit with this Mavs roster.
https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/ja...view-radio
Its true. McGee not only has significantly contributed to 3 championship rosters, but was seen as a big positive in Phoenix too:
https://www.nba.com/news/suns-view-javal...hip-puzzle
So what has happened to Javale McGee's game in such a short time in Dallas? A system fit issue seems the most prominent issue because he was not an unproductive dinosaur center even with the GSW. How is the fit sooo bad? Curiouser and curiouser ...
I think he already looked very similar to this in the series against the Suns. Mavs targeted him and the Suns quickly benched him. Giving most of his minutes to Biyombo. So it could simply be the natural decline of a guy in his mid 30s. McGee needs his athleticism. He was never known for his fundamendals. So even a slight decline can make a big difference.
Another thing was mentioned in one of the post game interviews a couple of weeks ago. McGee always played drop defense. Giving up the jumper but playing to his strengths around the rim. I would have expected something similar in Dallas but it was mentioned that they are asking him to play higher up on defense. Not changing the scheme for him. Basically asking him to play like Powell or Kleber. Really confused me because if that´s what they want him to do I have no clue why they signed him in the first place.
And when we look at McGee´s contribution on championship teams we should at least mention that for the most part he was a regular season body. Losing most of his minutes or even his spot in the rotation in the playoffs. I guess that is what the Mavs hoped for (especially reducing Kleber´s work load in the regular season) but it´s not like McGee´s limitations are a secret. And it´s not like he is the only "dinosaur" that is struggling. Teams are simply getting better and better on offense. Simply know how to expose liabilities. Even in the regular season.
(12-09-2022, 06:38 AM)Dahlsim Wrote: [ -> ]So what has happened to Javale McGee's game in such a short time in Dallas? System fit seems the most prominent issue because he was not an unproductive dinosaur center even with the GSW. How is the fit sooo bad? Curiouser and curiouser ...
Not given a fair chance before being shelved all together. And to his credit, he seems to be one of the biggest cheerleaders on the bench.
Dallas current defence system is very fluid and based on reading several opponents and teammates and reacting accordingly. Failure to make the correct reaction/rotation regularly results in a collapse and easy buckets for the opponent.
This system just does not work for a old, big, slow center with limited BBIQ as McGee is. He needs a more simple role with clear assignment on defence to be effective.
Also he ideally needs freedom to go for the offensive rebound and then be last man back in transition.
Key takeaway from that Suns article about McGee is he was considering Phoenix and Atlanta but “They weren’t guaranteeing that playing time,” McGee said of Atlanta. “They were saying if one of the players came back, they would have to experiment with that, too. I don’t want that iffy. I want somewhere where it’s guaranteed I’m going to get a solid 15 minutes.”
Sounds familiar. I'm sure he was guaranteed a starting role and 15 MPG in Dallas too. So unless Kidd is going to bench Powell and give McGee another shot, the unwritten rule of veteran respect says you move him to a better situation. McGee has earned that.
Three-way trades are notoriously difficult but I wonder if there's some combination of DET-ATL-DAL that makes sense. Burks + Noel + Bey + 1st could land Collins in Detroit. Might the Hawks still be interested in McGee?
One thing to bear in mind with these trade proposals…like Noel and others.
Dallas is $19mm under the projected LT for next season without accounting for Powell, Wood and Frank or minimum roster slots depending on what happens with those guys. If they want to use the full MLE, they need to stay about $11mm under the tax to have space to use it. So, they probably can’t bring back their own players, as things stand, and use the MLE.
So, moving off of guaranteed money for expiring or non-guaranteed money has value even if you don’t love the player being acquired. McGee only makes $5.7mm next season, but if he’s not producing, that is the difference between MLE and about $9mm to bring back players and the MLE and about $14mm to bring back players. Dallas could also S/W Reggie’s guarantee rather than eating the entire $5mm in one year and create even more room. So, they aren’t completely boxed in. But there is more to a Noel for McGee trade than just our opinions of the players themselves.
Seeing as how Dallas does not do a great job attracting FA's I would rather acquire the assets ahead of time and proceed into the off-season as a TAX-Paying team with the TP - MLE. Now that is easy for me to say and mark would have an entirely differing opinion I am sure.
(12-09-2022, 08:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]One thing to bear in mind with these trade proposals…like Noel and others.
Dallas is $19mm under the projected LT for next season without accounting for Powell, Wood and Frank or minimum roster slots depending on what happens with those guys. If they want to use the full MLE, they need to stay about $11mm under the tax to have space to use it. So, they probably can’t bring back their own players, as things stand, and use the MLE.
So, moving off of guaranteed money for expiring or non-guaranteed money has value even if you don’t love the player being acquired. McGee only makes $5.7mm next season, but if he’s not producing, that is the difference between MLE and about $9mm to bring back players and the MLE and about $14mm to bring back players. Dallas could also S/W Reggie’s guarantee rather than eating the entire $5mm in one year and create even more room. So, they aren’t completely boxed in. But there is more to a Noel for McGee trade than just our opinions of the players themselves.
Are we sure this is the route we are taking? I have a hard time seeing how we get any value out of Wood and have the full MLE. If we make the hypothetical Wood + Bullock for Collins trade we would be roughly at the tax line with no Powell or Frank, right?
If our goal was to be non tax payers next season, it makes the McGee contract look really bad. No reason to sign that kind of player for more than a year given the cap situation.
(12-09-2022, 08:56 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]One thing to bear in mind with these trade proposals…like Noel and others.
Dallas is $19mm under the projected LT for next season without accounting for Powell, Wood and Frank or minimum roster slots depending on what happens with those guys. If they want to use the full MLE, they need to stay about $11mm under the tax to have space to use it. So, they probably can’t bring back their own players, as things stand, and use the MLE.
So, moving off of guaranteed money for expiring or non-guaranteed money has value even if you don’t love the player being acquired. McGee only makes $5.7mm next season, but if he’s not producing, that is the difference between MLE and about $9mm to bring back players and the MLE and about $14mm to bring back players. Dallas could also S/W Reggie’s guarantee rather than eating the entire $5mm in one year and create even more room. So, they aren’t completely boxed in. But there is more to a Noel for McGee trade than just our opinions of the players themselves.
Thanks, it is really tricky. Assuming that Green and Hardy are off the table for mid-level moves and Powell is probably off the table for the type of moves we are discussing, it really does leave Dallas with hardly any attractive assets in these deals.
A move to move Frank and McGee for a longer contract could be an option, but as you said taking on a longer contract may not be what we are after.
Even if it is a buyout guy if Noel was bought out, would Dallas do anything if McGee was still on the roster?
How about Naz Reid for Frankie? Not sure that is enough for them though. Reid is a FA this summer and is probably going to be on a new team.
(12-09-2022, 06:57 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think he already looked very similar to this in the series against the Suns. Mavs targeted him and the Suns quickly benched him. Giving most of his minutes to Biyombo.
Good insights on all your points.
The Mavs played him off the floor but then they went out and not only signed him to a nice contract but penciled him in as their starter.
Still curiouser and curiouser.
Quote:So it could simply be the natural decline of a guy in his mid 30s. McGee needs his athleticism. He was never known for his fundamendals. So even a slight decline can make a big difference.
Always possible with guys at the McGee age range now 34 almost 35. Good point.
Still I think this change in effectiveness is too fast and too severe imo to be simply the 'natural decline'.
Mavs signed him to 3 years so they didn't think the drop off had come yet to this degree.
Quote:Another thing was mentioned in one of the post game interviews a couple of weeks ago. McGee always played drop defense. Giving up the jumper but playing to his strengths around the rim. I would have expected something similar in Dallas but it was mentioned that they are asking him to play higher up on defense. Not changing the scheme for him. Basically asking him to play like Powell or Kleber. Really confused me because if that´s what they want him to do I have no clue why they signed him in the first place.
Yeah, I'm suspecting scheme and usage to be the biggest factor here. Knowing Kidd and his coaching staff's style somehow its not something this version of a MBT anticipated?
Quote:
And when we look at McGee´s contribution on championship teams we should at least mention that for the most part he was a regular season body. Losing most of his minutes or even his spot in the rotation in the playoffs. I guess that is what the Mavs hoped for (especially reducing Kleber´s work load in the regular season) but it´s not like McGee´s limitations are a secret. And it´s not like he is the only "dinosaur" that is struggling. Teams are simply getting better and better on offense. Simply know how to expose liabilities. Even in the regular season.
Hmm, I really don't think dinosaurism is likely the most prominent factor here. In terms of the playoffs, it depends on which playoff series you're referring too but McGee had his moments regular season and playoffs. According to Nico in the article I referenced if anything they say they got McGee more for the stretch run to get that veteran championship pedigree.
GSW for example was not exactly a dinosaur friendly roster or scheme.
Isn't it possible to exploit almost any big center in the playoffs? Heck even Jokic isn't immune to that. Its still a question of whether the big gives more to your team when he's on the floor than he takes away. Can you exploit an advantage more than the opponent can exploit their mismatch.
Right now clearly the Kidd and company cannot which is why at this point it looks like a big offseason miscalculation was made on McGee. Maybe they can still right the ship and find a way to use the 3x NBA champion?