MavsBoard

(01-15-2023, 02:11 AM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Those two lineups may not be far off offensively, but there is an absolute oceanic chasm between them defensively.

That's the problem with building around Luka and not Giannis. This will always be the case.

(01-14-2023, 11:07 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Pretty much. Both are equally important. Last 40 years championships won without being top 10 in offensive rating: 4. Last 40 years championships won without being top 10 in defensive rating: 3. Interestingly the Mavs are the only team that won a championship without being top 7 in either category.

Yes, both are equally important. Because offense is defense, and defense is offense. They play against one another, and that's why they are equal. Scoring two points is the same value as rescuing two points. The question is whether your offense beats the other defense more than the other offense beats your defense. So they are equally important. There is no way you win a championship without either.

Our offense is far from good enough to win a championship. If we add one or two more pieces with skills as SD or CW, we will have the best offense in the league.

On defensive side players like Luka and Cwood are amazing on defense and proving many people wrong. Many offensive players around the league are labelled wrong as bad defensive players. When you score easy, you tend to get easy back on defense and be fresh for making the stop. Conversely, if you can't score, the other team has a fastbreak and your defense has no chance.

Not only are the defense and offense equally important. They are interconnected. Offense is defense, and defense is offense. Thus, without offensive skills, you will never ever be a great defensive player.

I dont care how good sometimes DFS, THJ, Bullock tend to appear on defensive side. If they cant execute on offense and make a miss when they have offensive space, the other team will make a fastbreak and you can forget about their 3&D skills- they have negative value on offense and defense.

When CWood, Luka, SD execute offensively and use the space correctly, then our defense has a chance to come back and set the defensive formation and perform much better.

As soon as you have one player in your lineup that cant execute on offense, in theory the opponent can leave the space there and that player when missing the offensive opportunity will make the entire defense at risk, despite having "defensive skills".

In other words. You cant play defense without playing offense. And vice verca.

So this team needs to forget about the 3&D players without offensive skills and bbIQ. We need to add players with offensive skills, and being around CWood, SD, Luka, we will score so many points and get back and play much better D than you can imagine.

I just know when we score points and set the D well, both Luka and CWood and SD can and do play D and we make stops. When the Bullocks and THJs etc. are missing offensive assignments, take terrible shots, misuse the offensive space left, we play horrible D. its not a coincidence.

Trade for one or two players with offensive skills like SD and CWood. No need for superstars. The team will explode. On both ends of the floor. Luka and CWoods defensive game will become better once the team executes on offense. At the moment this team is being held down by two positions in the starting lineup that just dont have the offensive bbIQ and flow and multiskill level to play the same game/scheme as Luka, SD, CWood. The last three mentioned are a complete fit. So was Brunson. It is no wonder that once CWood is out that the opponent choses to double Luka every single play. Lukas perfect match on offense and defense is not the 3&D guy that shoots only. Its the guy that can use the space in multitude of ways, shoot put the ball on the floor, pass dribble, finish around the rim. In other words Brunson, CWood, SD. If Luka is surrounded by CWood, SD and one or two more players of this caliber, you will see both the offense and defense exploding. You will see our "offensive" players that show much better intensity and positioning on defensive side, and us outscoring the opponents with ease. Its no wonder that when CWood and SD both are in the lineups that doubling of Luka becomes harder. One or two more of offensive skills players and other teams will not have a chance playing against us. On both sides.

(01-15-2023, 09:06 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, both are equally important. Because offense is defense, and defense is offense. They play against one another, and that's why they are equal. Scoring two points is the same value as rescuing two points. The question is whether your offense beats the other defense more than the other offense beats your defense. So they are equally important. There is no way you win a championship without either.

Our offense is far from good enough to win a championship. If we add one or two more pieces with skills as SD or CW, we will have the best offense in the league.

On defensive side players like Luka and Cwood are amazing on defense and proving many people wrong. Many offensive players around the league are labelled wrong as bad defensive players. When you score easy, you tend to get easy back on defense and be fresh for making the stop. Conversely, if you can't score, the other team has a fastbreak and your defense has no chance.

Not only are the defense and offense equally important. They are interconnected. Offense is defense, and defense is offense. Thus, without offensive skills, you will never ever be a great defensive player.

I dont care how good sometimes DFS, THJ, Bullock tend to appear on defensive side. If they cant execute on offense and make a miss when they have offensive space, the other team will make a fastbreak and you can forget about their 3&D skills- they have negative value on offense and defense.

When CWood, Luka, SD execute offensively and use the space correctly, then our defense has a chance to come back and set the defensive formation and perform much better.

As soon as you have one player in your lineup that cant execute on offense, in theory the opponent can leave the space there and that player when missing the offensive opportunity will make the entire defense at risk, despite having "defensive skills".

In other words. You cant play defense without playing offense. And vice verca.

So this team needs to forget about the 3&D players without offensive skills and bbIQ. We need to add players with offensive skills, and being around CWood, SD, Luka, we will score so many points and get back and play much better D than you can imagine.

I just know when we score points and set the D well, both Luka and CWood and SD can and do play D and we make stops. When the Bullocks and THJs etc. are missing offensive assignments, take terrible shots, misuse the offensive space left, we play horrible D. its not a coincidence.

Trade for one or two players with offensive skills like SD and CWood. No need for superstars. The team will explode. On both ends of the floor. Luka and CWoods defensive game will become better once the team executes on offense. At the moment this team is being held down by two positions in the starting lineup that just dont have the offensive bbIQ and flow and multiskill level to play the same game/scheme as Luka, SD, CWood. The last three mentioned are a complete fit. So was Brunson. It is no wonder that once CWood is out that the opponent choses to double Luka every single play. Lukas perfect match on offense and defense is not the 3&D guy that shoots only. Its the guy that can use the space in multitude of ways, shoot put the ball on the floor, pass dribble, finish around the rim. In other words Brunson, CWood, SD. If Luka is surrounded by CWood, SD and one or two more players of this caliber, you will see both the offense and defense exploding. You will see our "offensive" players that show much better intensity and positioning on defensive side, and us outscoring the opponents with ease. Its no wonder that when CWood and SD both are in the lineups that doubling of Luka becomes harder. One or two more of offensive skills players and other teams will not have a chance playing against us. On both sides.

I'm sorry but where is the evidence that surrounding good offense only players with more skilled offense only players will somehow improve the defense?  If that is true, and Luka and Wood have been so good on defense, then why has this team been one of the worst defenses in the league since the three and D guys got hurt and we have been forced to play more offensive minded players?  There are plenty of teams now and historically that have been really good on offense and terrible on defense which would seem to refute your statement.

(01-15-2023, 07:47 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That's the problem with building around Luka and not Giannis. This will always be the case.

Not really.  You put Jrue and Middleton on the Mavs, they are probably better than the current version of the Bucks.

(01-15-2023, 11:20 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm sorry but where is the evidence that surrounding good offense only players with more skilled offense only players will somehow improve the defense?  If that is true, and Luka and Wood have been so good on defense, then why has this team been one of the worst defenses in the league since the three and D guys got hurt and we have been forced to play more offensive minded players?  There are plenty of teams now and historically that have been really good on offense and terrible on defense which would seem to refute your statement.

As soon as Wood is out, Luka is doubled, we cant score, and play horrible D, and we lose. Its showing up directly. In the games where Luka and Wood have been the best on offense, its exactly the games where they were best on the D side as well.

For other historic teams, you would need to refer to a specific case. Perhaps they were not that great defensive players but only good offensive players?  Luka and Wood are great defensive and offensive players, when the offensive scheme is roling, when not and the D is not set in transition, and they are out of position, then not. Of course there are players that are only one way, it is not how to understand my post. We need two way players. If you get one way players, lets say defense first, you wont be able to play offense, and when offense is not rolling, the defense wont as well. And vice verca. We need two way players. My point is that we need to find offensive players, that are underrated defenders and that have the wrong label being bad defenders. Just like people were wrong about Luka and CWood on that part.

When our 3&D players got hurt. DFS, Maxi etc. I think we got the longest running streak in 2011. Correct me if i wrong? Why? We started to play CWood which means better offense. THJ had some impact as well. But the impact would be far far greater if it had been Brunson or some other skilled player.

I think the recent run of won games clearly demonstrates how much better out offense and record was once we lower the one dimensional players and place multi offensive skillset around Luka. We need offensive skillset and underarted defenders. Once the offense is rolling, all these players will perform even more on defensive side.

P.S. An example is last season also when we started playing far better D when Brunson playing along Luka. Both not known to be great defensive players. But defense excelled at many points. But when you score on offense with ease, get back, you can get the most out of your defensive abilities. They were fantastic on both ends and it is the lack of multi skill level of the other positions that held us from going all the way.

(01-15-2023, 11:55 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]As soon as Wood is out, Luka is doubled, we cant score, and play horrible D, and we lose. Its showing up directly. In the games where Luka and Wood have been the best on offense, its exactly the games where they were best on the D side as well.

For other historic teams, you would need to refer to a specific case. Perhaps they were not that great defensive players but only good offensive players?  Luka and Wood are great defensive and offensive players, when the offensive scheme is roling, when not and the D is not set in transition, and they are out of position, then not. Of course there are players that are only one way, it is not how to understand my post. We need two way players. If you get one way players, lets say defense first, you wont be able to play offense, and when offense is not rolling, the defense wont as well. And vice verca. We need two way players. My point is that we need to find offensive players, that are underrated defenders and that have the wrong label being bad defenders. Just like people were wrong about Luka and CWood on that part.

When our 3&D players got hurt. DFS, Maxi etc. I think we got the longest running streak in 2011. Correct me if i wrong? Why? We started to play CWood which means better offense. THJ had some impact as well. But the impact would be far far greater if it had been Brunson or some other skilled player.

I think the recent run of won games clearly demonstrates how much better out offense and record was once we lower the one dimensional players and place multi offensive skillset around Luka. We need offensive skillset and underarted defenders. Once the offense is rolling, all these players will perform even more on defensive side.

P.S. An example is last season also when we started playing far better D when Brunson playing along Luka. Both not known to be great defensive players. But defense excelled at many points. But when you score on offense with ease, get back, you can get the most out of your defensive abilities. They were fantastic on both ends and it is the lack of multi skill level of the other positions that held us from going all the way.

That seven game win streak is almost entirely due to playing against bottom feeding tanking teams, and a lot of those wins were due to Luka having historic 50 point games.  Before the injuries, this team had some maddening losses to bad teams, but they had one of the best records against good teams in the league.  Since the injuries they are getting trucked by any good team they play.  This team has been significantly worse since the injuries by any metric you look at, and a 7 game win streak against a bunch of turds does not change that.

(01-15-2023, 01:09 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]That seven game win streak is almost entirely due to playing against bottom feeding tanking teams, and a lot of those wins were due to Luka having historic 50 point games. 

This.  This.  This.

Wood also played well on both ends of the floor against a lot of these teams and we often struggled eek out victories.  We have a bad team with a transcendent player but unless he is playing at an MVP level and has a few guys come along with him, we aren't beating good teams and even if all of that happens, we aren't beating the best teams.

(01-15-2023, 11:24 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Not really.  You put Jrue and Middleton on the Mavs, they are probably better than the current version of the Bucks.

Better defensively??

(01-14-2023, 06:36 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Didn´t know that Wood made multiple allstar or all defense teams. But I remember that he was traded for one first and the Mavs garbage contracts. Not three first rounds picks and two swaps.
Jrue Holiday trade package was comparable to Mitchell or Gobert. He gives you the same offensive production that Wood offers with more playmaking while also being one of (if not the) the best perimeter defenders in the league.
Middleton is coming back from an injury but his body of work is far more impressive than anything Wood or SD have done. 3x allstar that has been a reliable 20ppg scorer and the Bucks closer in the last five seasons.

If Wood is as good as those two there are no excuses for the Mavs struggles. Unless Luka isn´t as good as advertised.

Are we talking resume or current level of play?  Everything you state could be said of retired players, lol.

(01-15-2023, 01:09 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]That seven game win streak is almost entirely due to playing against bottom feeding tanking teams, and a lot of those wins were due to Luka having historic 50 point games.  Before the injuries, this team had some maddening losses to bad teams, but they had one of the best records against good teams in the league.  Since the injuries they are getting trucked by any good team they play.  This team has been significantly worse since the injuries by any metric you look at, and a 7 game win streak against a bunch of turds does not change that.

There surely must be a reason why Luka made a historic run, in particular only playing along Wood and SD in the starting lineup for the first continuous stretch like that. Does it maybe have to do that he saw single teams mostly (Luka)? Because double teaming didnt work in that lineup. Double teams wont work for any team when Luka is surrounded by offensive skill players. Players that dont only shoot but use the space to put the ball on the floor and attack the basket as well and also able to pass.

This is no coincidence. It is due to Wood and SD being on the floor along with Luka. It is also no coincidence we won those games. We have met many bottom teams earlier in season and not winning, when Luka was surrounded by the 3&D players that you refer to. So there is your evidence. Luka was doubled, the offense didnt convert, and on other end the defense was not able to get back in transition, and then the 3&D guys are of no use at all.

We wont win without able to play offensive basketball. We wont be able to play D without being able to play well offensively.

We need multiple skill offensive players around Luka. They will destroy any team that even considers doubling Luka. Hence, they wont double. No matter if bottom of top team. It means we will score points. It means we will get back on D and nobody will be left behind in transition. It means that everyone will be more fresh on the defensive side of ball. Again illustrated by last season as we had great D "despite" having Brunson and Luka in the lineup, which completely were mislabelled as bad defensively.

Many other great offensive players are likewise wrongly mislabeld as bad defensive players. Not all. But one needs to look at the context in where they played.

(01-15-2023, 09:06 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, both are equally important. Because offense is defense, and defense is offense. They play against one another, and that's why they are equal. Scoring two points is the same value as rescuing two points. The question is whether your offense beats the other defense more than the other offense beats your defense. So they are equally important. There is no way you win a championship without either.

Our offense is far from good enough to win a championship. If we add one or two more pieces with skills as SD or CW, we will have the best offense in the league.

On defensive side players like Luka and Cwood are amazing on defense and proving many people wrong. Many offensive players around the league are labelled wrong as bad defensive players. When you score easy, you tend to get easy back on defense and be fresh for making the stop. Conversely, if you can't score, the other team has a fastbreak and your defense has no chance.

Not only are the defense and offense equally important. They are interconnected. Offense is defense, and defense is offense. Thus, without offensive skills, you will never ever be a great defensive player.

I dont care how good sometimes DFS, THJ, Bullock tend to appear on defensive side. If they cant execute on offense and make a miss when they have offensive space, the other team will make a fastbreak and you can forget about their 3&D skills- they have negative value on offense and defense.

When CWood, Luka, SD execute offensively and use the space correctly, then our defense has a chance to come back and set the defensive formation and perform much better.

As soon as you have one player in your lineup that cant execute on offense, in theory the opponent can leave the space there and that player when missing the offensive opportunity will make the entire defense at risk, despite having "defensive skills".

In other words. You cant play defense without playing offense. And vice verca.

So this team needs to forget about the 3&D players without offensive skills and bbIQ. We need to add players with offensive skills, and being around CWood, SD, Luka, we will score so many points and get back and play much better D than you can imagine.

I just know when we score points and set the D well, both Luka and CWood and SD can and do play D and we make stops. When the Bullocks and THJs etc. are missing offensive assignments, take terrible shots, misuse the offensive space left, we play horrible D. its not a coincidence.

Trade for one or two players with offensive skills like SD and CWood. No need for superstars. The team will explode. On both ends of the floor. Luka and CWoods defensive game will become better once the team executes on offense. At the moment this team is being held down by two positions in the starting lineup that just dont have the offensive bbIQ and flow and multiskill level to play the same game/scheme as Luka, SD, CWood. The last three mentioned are a complete fit. So was Brunson. It is no wonder that once CWood is out that the opponent choses to double Luka every single play. Lukas perfect match on offense and defense is not the 3&D guy that shoots only. Its the guy that can use the space in multitude of ways, shoot put the ball on the floor, pass dribble, finish around the rim. In other words Brunson, CWood, SD. If Luka is surrounded by CWood, SD and one or two more players of this caliber, you will see both the offense and defense exploding. You will see our "offensive" players that show much better intensity and positioning on defensive side, and us outscoring the opponents with ease. Its no wonder that when CWood and SD both are in the lineups that doubling of Luka becomes harder. One or two more of offensive skills players and other teams will not have a chance playing against us. On both sides.

This.  A thousand times this.

(01-15-2023, 01:32 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Are we talking resume or current level of play?  Everything you state could be said of retired players, lol.

As far as accolades go. Last season. All defense team for Holiday. Allstar team for Middleton. Not like Holiday is any worse this season. Middleton is coming back from an injury. And don´t take my opinion for it. Look at the @"DanSchwartzgan"post or at player rankings from ESPN, SI, BR and other sides that have Holiday and Middleton among the top 30-40 players. SD and Wood in the 70+ range.
But go ahead. I don´t want to burst your bubble. Don´t think you can find a single third party ranking that has Wood and SD ahead of or even in the same tier as Holiday and Middleton.

(01-15-2023, 01:32 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Are we talking resume or current level of play?  Everything you state could be said of retired players, lol.

Make it simple, if we traded Wood and Dinwiddie for Jrue and Middleton right now, we would be a legit contender.

(01-15-2023, 02:11 AM)Dundalis Wrote: [ -> ]Those two lineups may not be far off offensively, but there is an absolute oceanic chasm between them defensively.

The Bucks have 3 DPOY candidates in their starting lineup in Giannis, Brooks, and Jrue.  Middleton *when healthy* isn't far behind.  Not only that, their superstar MVP has won a couple of DPOY awards.  I'm hard pressed to think of a combination of defensive starters in the history of the NBA.  So, you get the captain obvious award.

Point is how to build around a single superstar with B+ players (cusp of Allstar players).  There have only been a few successful teams in doing this since the 80s:
2021 Bucks
2011 Mavs
And only one team without a superstar:
2004 Pistons

Taking the 2011 Mavs out of the equation given that was catching lightning in a bottle, we only have the Bucks as a successful example.

Wood and Din are currently performing at the B+ level.  IMO, one more B+ player, correct for our core, in the starting lineup and we have a puncher's chance at a championship.

The only question is who is that player without giving up Din or Wood?  Collins?  OG?  Lavine?  Pascal?

(01-15-2023, 01:53 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Make it simple, if we traded Wood and Dinwiddie for Jrue and Middleton right now, we would be a legit contender.

Maybe 3 years ago.  Have you even seen Middleton play this year?  11/3/4 on 32%fg.  He only played in 2 playoff games last year.  Again, you're cruising in your DeLorean.

(01-15-2023, 01:58 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]The Bucks have 3 DPOY candidates in their starting lineup in Giannis, Brooks, and Jrue.  Middleton *when healthy* isn't far behind.  Not only that, their superstar MVP has won a couple of DPOY awards.  I'm hard pressed to think of a combination of defensive starters in the history of the NBA.  So, you get the captain obvious award.

Point is how to build around a single superstar with B+ players (cusp of Allstar players).  There have only been a few successful teams in doing this since the 80s:
2021 Bucks
2011 Mavs
And only one team without a superstar:
2004 Pistons

Taking the 2011 Mavs out of the equation given that was catching lightning in a bottle, we only have the Bucks as a successful example.

Wood and Din are currently performing at the B+ level.  IMO, one more B+ player, correct for our core, in the starting lineup and we have a puncher's chance at a championship.

The only question is who is that player without giving up Din or Wood?  Collins?  OG?  Lavine?  Pascal?

I'm not sure what "B+" players mean, but Jrue and Middleton are in different league than Wood or Din (especially if you are looking at the 2021 versions).  They are at least as good offensively, but wildly better defensively (as you just stated above).  I don't know why you are trying to put them in same category.

(01-15-2023, 02:03 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe 3 years ago.  Have you even seen Middleton play this year?  11/3/4 on 32%fg.  He only played in 2 playoff games last year.  Again, you're cruising in your DeLorean.

You are looking at a 7 game sample to make your point.  He is still a two way player who is better than anyone we have not name Luka, and Jrue is another level above him.

(01-15-2023, 02:07 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what "B+" players mean, but Jrue and Middleton are in different league than Wood or Din (especially if you are looking at the 2021 versions).  They are at least as good offensively, but wildly better defensively (as you just stated above).  I don't know why you are trying to put them in same category.

Knock, knock.
Who's there?
2023.

Middleton has been injured and awful.  Jrue is one of my favorite players (I thought he was the perfect backcourt mate for Luka when NOLA traded him for spare parts), but I would definitely say Wood is at his level right now.  Din is a notch below, but we're making distinctions without making a difference.

What is my definition of a B+ player?  I already said...  on the cusp of being an Allstar.   The last 15 games:
Din - 16.1pts, 2.5rbs, 4.8asts, 46.9fg%, 39.3%3pt, .4stls
Wood - 20pts, 9rbs, 2.1asts, 53.2fg%, 38.6%3pt, 2.5blks
Holiday - 16.8pts, 7.1asts, 4.3rbs, 44.4fg%, 40%3pt, 1.1stls

Not identical, but certainly on the same level.