(12-22-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]And how you use Wood depends on what Wood will do. If Wood is going to be the single big, he MUST defend. He can't just zone out until the Mavs have the ball again. Or, conversely, if all he will do is play one end, the Mavs can't play him as the single big.
And, as even @"DanSchwartzgan" admitted the other day, since he has gotten the chance to play solo big, he basically has been defending.
What you seem to think is effort/focus based (I'm sure that's part of it, to be fair), I actually think is an indication that what a center must do on defense is actually possible for Wood to accomplish, whereas what a forward must do on defense is not.
I've said this many times, but for me, the equation becomes:
Wood is either good enough to play as a solo big on a winning team or he is not a player you want on your team. There is no "in-between" where you can magically hide him by playing him out of position. He's a big in a one-big league. Does he belong in that league? I honestly don't know yet, but I feel pretty strongly that the clock on us finding out started about a week ago, not at the beginning of the season.
(12-22-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]The fact that he is now playing Wood as the single big, due to injury, let's hope it has positive results after months of preparation. We'll see. But I think the past months have been far different than you see them. I don't think Wood was ready at all (and Wood doesn't seem to think so either), and whether he can do it now remains to be seen. We'll see.
Hey, you might be totally right about this. I'm not sure it matters at this point.
All that matters now is that he's getting his chance - it will either work or it won't.
(12-22-2022, 02:15 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]And, as even @"DanSchwartzgan" admitted the other day, since he has gotten the chance to play solo big, he basically has been defending.
Wood is either good enough to play as a solo big on a winning team or he is not a player you want on your team. There is no "in-between" where you can magically hide him by playing him out of position. He's a big in a one-big league. Does he belong in that league? I honestly don't know yet, but I feel pretty strongly that the clock on us finding out started about a week ago, not at the beginning of the season.
And, in the two games since I said it, the D hasn't been the least bit special. That is why the statement was accompanied with the question "will this last or was it due to a specific type of opponent?".
I think the in-between for Wood is he's a bench big (center). Whether he can play with a someone like Dorian or Luka or whether he needs someone like Maxi on the floor may depend on the opponent more than it depends on Wood.
(12-22-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]So I think Kidd has been playing Wood with another big because Wood has forced him to. In hopes Wood will learn to defend, and pay attention, and all that that, while he has some help.
This, to me (and with respect), makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.
It makes me think you believe the center position is somehow something reserved for truly special defenders. I don't see it that way at all.
I think the reality of the game today is that the spread pick and roll is king, meaning that the center, practically speaking, is almost always the
worst defender on the floor, from a certain perspective.
Playing Wood together with another big basically gives the opposing offense even more opportunity to exploit your lack of speed/agility in space, which is absolutely what they hope you'll give them.
It certainly doesn't help hide him from a matchup perspective, either. Would you rather Wood be matched up with Nurkic, or with Jerami Grant? I'd say we got the answer to that one the other night.
Now, does the center position (when they're "low man" which is far from a guarantee today, with the sophistication level of these offenses) come with a unique and important requirement to read screens and see things developing? ABSOLUTELY! But, EVERY position has an important role within the defense, so why on Earth would they spend time trying to get him to learn how to defend by playing a position for which he isn't suited in the first place???????
Two bigs is
more difficult, not less. Not only can Wood not function adequately trying to learn a position he can't possibly learn, but he's simultaneously making things more difficult for the guy who's playing the center position.
(12-22-2022, 02:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The season ended that way, but it certainly didn't begin that way. He started his tenure here trying to play Powell and Porzingis together, when anyone could see that Porzingis should've been played as a solo big.
"...anyone could see..."
"Anyone" doesn't have to deal with the limits and challenges of a 15-man roster, as to how to get minutes allocated in a way that works for all.
I pointed out many times then, and remind now, that the 2021-22 Mavs roster was stupidly assembled, and that wasn't on Kidd. (Thanks, Cuban.) They had SIX centers, 40% of the roster, in other words their C's were filling 2 full positions on their 3-team depth chart.
With it being some of them their better players, Kidd was all but forced to play them 2 at a time. Or, perhaps, to relabel (and play) KP and Maxi as PF.
"Anyone" also doesn't have to deal with the fact they were trying to get KP's head right, turn KP into a star again, and KP didn't want to play C.
As I have said many times, they don't have very good roster-building with Cuban refusing to hire an expert GM, and what a coach can do gets limited by that ineptness.
(12-22-2022, 02:29 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think the in-between for Wood is he's a bench big (center).
And I'm cool with that, if that's the best he can be, but then we'd have to hope that you can get him for that level of salary and that he'd be excited and engaged with that job (which goes back to the conversation @"F Gump" has been having all year about his professionalism).
Call me crazy, but I want to give him a chance to actually LEARN and improve before I make any such declaration about what his ceiling is. All I've seen definitively, so far (and I've really been watching) is that I'd take him as a big-minute player over Kristaps Porzingis without thinking twice. He's actually a GOOD offensive player.
(12-22-2022, 02:32 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]"Anyone" also doesn't have to deal with the fact they were trying to get KP's head right, turn KP into a star again, and KP didn't want to play C.
But that's contradictory, because he IS a center. He is nothing else. And, I remember him specifically saying he DID want to play the 5, because he liked being an above the break "trailer" which is how the 5 was implemented in transition here at the time.
How's Washington using him? At center, that's how. Think that's making him miserable?
You cannot move a center to a different position to make him play better. He was playing (more) poorly specifically because he was out there with a center, just like Wood was this season.
(12-22-2022, 02:32 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]As I have said many times, they don't have very good roster-building with Cuban refusing to hire an expert GM, and what a coach can do gets limited by that ineptness.
And I still agree, but it's also becoming clear to me that the choices Kidd is making (within the flawed parameters he's given) are not the best choices for optimizing the situation.
Carlisle would be doing this all differently, and for my money, much better. That's just one example. I have no beef with your central thesis about Cuban being the biggest, most insurmountable problem, but that doesn't change my suspicion that what Kidd wants to do, if given his ideal roster, isn't something of which I'd be a fan. I simply don't like what I'm starting to believe is his preferred brand of basketball.
(12-22-2022, 02:32 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]This, to me (and with respect), makes absolutely no sense, whatsoever.
It makes me think you believe the center position is somehow something reserved for truly special defenders. I don't see it that way at all.
I think the reality of the game today is that the spread pick and roll is king, meaning that the center, practically speaking, is almost always the worst defender on the floor, from a certain perspective.
Playing Wood together with another big basically gives the opposing offense even more opportunity to exploit your lack of speed/agility in space, which is absolutely what they hope you'll give them.
It certainly doesn't help hide him from a matchup perspective, either. Would you rather Wood be matched up with Nurkic, or with Jerami Grant? I'd say we got the answer to that one the other night.
Now, does the center position (when they're "low man" which is far from a guarantee today, with the sophistication level of these offenses) come with a unique and important requirement to read screens and see things developing? ABSOLUTELY! But, EVERY position has an important role within the defense, so why on Earth would they spend time trying to get him to learn how to defend by playing a position for which he isn't suited in the first place???????
Two bigs is more difficult, not less. Not only can Wood not function adequately trying to learn a position he can't possibly learn, but he's simultaneously making things more difficult for the guy who's playing the center position.
I really don't agree with any of this -- I don't agree with the idea that Wood will suddenly be better defensively if only switched to a different context, nor with how you say Wood HAS been used at all, nor for the excuses you give for him. (Nor do I agree that your center can be your worst defender. Ouch.) I do think all players have to defend (even if not expertly), or else their role is going to be limited, regardless of their offensive skills or position.
I'll just leave it at that.
I hope he learns. And quickly. But I'm not so naive to think the Mavs will find some secret formula that no other team has tried, that will be the magic switch -- imo it's whether he gets his head on right, or doesn't, and I have to be aware that his incentives are as high now as they will ever be. But ....
(12-22-2022, 02:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I don't agree with the idea that Wood will suddenly be better defensively if only switched to a different context,
Not what I said at all.
I said that he'll have a
chance to play better.
And for what it's worth, despite you straw-manning me on purpose just now, he actually HAS played quite a bit better on defense recently, thought I never claimed it was a done deal.
(12-22-2022, 02:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]nor with how you say Wood HAS been used at all
Ok, so you're saying that he hasn't been used mostly in conjunction with another big during his court time?
(12-22-2022, 02:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I do think all players have to defend (even if not expertly), or else their role is going to be limited, regardless of their offensive skills or position.
Agreed!
(12-22-2022, 02:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Nor do I agree that your center can be your worst defender. Ouch.)
Wow, this one didn't land at all. This is so far from my point that I'm convinced I articulated it poorly. I'll try again.
It's not about "can be"...in a world in which the majority of what you have to defend is spread pick and roll (and that's not hypothetical, that's the world we live in) your biggest, slowest player basically IS your worst defender. Period, point blank. It's not a comment about roster construction or player ranking, so much. It's a plea to get this board to start realizing what
actually matters, defensively.
2011 Tyson Chandler, the guy who all of you same people tried to tell me wasn't as good as Haywood because he wasn't "thick enough", might be too slow to play upper tier defensive center in the league today. He certainly would not be able to do so if Dirk was on the floor with him, I can PROMISE you that. Dirk would unquestionably be a 5 if he entered the league today, and frankly, I wonder if he might not be a bit too limited, quickness wise, to even cover that position.
The sport is not the same, my friends. Watch some games that don't involve the Mavericks every now and again.
(12-22-2022, 10:27 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media0.giphy.com/media/kqvyMj8usOyas/giphy.gif)
I'm honestly dubious on whether or not Collins is as good as Wood is offensively. Wood can clearly score in bunches. Collins appears to be more limited. He's a high flier, but he's closer to Maxi than Wood offensively imo. (Not saying that he's close to all at Maxi, just saying he's limited).
Also have to wonder whether Collins can come in and have day 1 chemistry Wood appears to have with Luka at least offensively.
There was a moment against MIN where Luka just flung a quick dart of a pass over 2 Wolves heads and found Wood camping under the rim after a pick and it was an easy dunk. My instant thought was, "why the hell didn't they ever do that with Porzingis consistently?"
I'd be petrified if the Mavs were to make a trade for Collins, especially at a premium, and then realize that he's going to be another robotic role player that isn't going to be able to create for his own.
(12-22-2022, 03:08 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I'm honestly dubious on whether or not Collins is as good as Wood is offensively. Wood can clearly score in bunches. Collins appears to be more limited. He's a high flier, but he's closer to Maxi than Wood offensively imo. (Not saying that he's close to all at Maxi, just saying he's limited).
Also have to wonder whether Collins can come in and have day 1 chemistry Wood appears to have with Luka at least offensively.
There was a moment against MIN where Luka just flung a quick dart of a pass over 2 Wolves heads and found Wood camping under the rim after a pick and it was an easy dunk. My instant thought was, "why the hell didn't they ever do that with Porzingis consistently?"
I'd be petrified if the Mavs were to make a trade for Collins, especially at a premium, and then realize that he's going to be another robotic role player that isn't going to be able to create for his own.
I think this is a valid summation of what could potentially happen. It's a risk, no doubt.
Ultimately, it's about whether they want to or even believe they can re-sign or extend Wood. We don't know the answer, but hopefully (this time) they do. If it's between Collins (or even something much less exciting than Collins) and letting another asset bounce for
nothing, that's an easy choice.
(12-22-2022, 03:04 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]the guy who all of you same people tried to tell me wasn't as good
Please stop with the straw man victim schtick. You can make perfectly good arguments without this crutch.
(12-22-2022, 03:13 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Please stop with the straw man victim schtick. You can make perfectly good arguments without this crutch.
Hey man, I'm not sure how that comment came across to you, and if it offends, then I'm sorry. BUT, I vividly remember people arguing incessantly that Carlisle was dumb for not playing Haywood ahead of Chandler during that 2011 season. You don't?
My point is just that wherever the "state of the art" actually is when it comes to center play, my experience has been that this board is typically about 5-10 years behind with their expectations of what that means.
People are free to disagree, but please know that I didn't intend the comment you quoted to make me seem like a victim (I don't feel like one - like, at all) or to single anyone out (I didn't point at anyone specifically, and honestly have a fairly hazy recollection on who they were, save for a few cases).
It seems to have offended you, which was not my intent, so I apologize!!!!!!
I PASSIONATELY think I'm in the right on this argument - that's all.
(12-22-2022, 03:16 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/mazurfocus/status/16...5605630976
double posting this here since we're on topic.
Jesus.
You like this deal @"Kammrath"???
I don't mind saying that I HATE it, and not because of my Collins reservations.
(12-22-2022, 03:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]My point is just that wherever the "state of the art" actually is when it comes to center play, my experience has been that this board is typically about 5-10 years behind with their expectations of what that means.
(12-22-2022, 03:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I PASSIONATELY think I'm in the right on this argument - that's all.
100%. Anyone can find the evidence in the McGee thread. Mavs fanbase has a dinosaur fetish.
(12-22-2022, 03:25 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Potential deal: Collins to Dallas for Christian Wood, Josh Green and Frank Ntilikina.
Western Conference executive: “The Hawks would probably want more, they’d want a pick or Jaden hardy, something like that, but the Mavs really like Josh Green and they’re not talking about dealing him at this point. Anything can change, though. One of the problems is, do you think Collins is a big upgrade over Christian Wood? By reputation, yes. But when you talk about production, they’re not that far off, and Wood is cheaper. Dallas could offer more assets, more young assets, and put (Davis) Bertans in the deal but I doubt Atlanta goes for that.”
https://heavy.com/sports/miami-heat/john...lls-trade/
No, no, no, no, no...now we're talking Green AND Hardy?????
If this is anything close to reality, I am OUT on this one.