MavsBoard

(12-22-2022, 12:53 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]Ultimately what it takes to get Collins from Atlanta is the question:
I would think that a package of Powell, McGee, Frank and Theo covers the salary commitment but how much of a tip should each team get? ATL is giving up the best player in the package but Dallas is taking on 60 million in total salary after this season (JC - McGee)
IF Atlanta demands picks, the price changes... Atlanta can have a conditional (Top 5 protected) pick swap in '24/'25, conditional (Top 3 protected) #1 pick '25/'26/'27, conditional (Top 5 protected) pick swap in '26/'27/'28 and they take McGee and Bertans *;

If ATL demands picks, I would not be interested at all. As you said, "ATL is giving up the best player in the package but Dallas is taking on 60 million in total salary after this season" and to me, combined with Collins' general suckiness this season that makes him a huge risk with that giant contract, I think that's enough. Just because multi-time all-stars are commanding multiple picks to trade for them doesn't mean every spare starter is worth the same.

(12-22-2022, 01:01 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]If ATL demands picks, I would not be interested at all. As you said, "ATL is giving up the best player in the package but Dallas is taking on 60 million in total salary after this season" and to me, combined with Collins' general suckiness this season that makes him a huge risk with that giant contract, I think that's enough. Just because multi-time all-stars are commanding multiple picks to trade for them doesn't mean every spare starter is worth the same.

Yeah but I might do 2 pick swaps and a protected 1st to get off of Bertans and McGee. J/K................................  sort of.

(12-22-2022, 12:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Wood             Powell
          Kleber
Collins (DFS)

DFS 
          Green
Hardaway
          Dinwiddie
Luka

(12-22-2022, 12:34 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]This is DEFINITELY a valid concern, and a very real reason to consider trading him. 

I guess I'm STILL just more excited about Wood (at center) than I am about Collins (at the 4).

Why not Collins at the 5?  He is not much different in size than Powell while being a better rebounder and rim protector and a much better offensive player.  If we are going for a switch heavy defense with mobile bigs, then run Collins/Powell as your center rotation with Maxi being able to backfill the 4 and 5 when he gets back.

(12-22-2022, 01:05 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Why not Collins at the 5?  He is not much different in size than Powell while being a better rebounder and rim protector and a much better offensive player.  If we are going for a switch heavy defense with mobile bigs, then run Collins/Powell as your center rotation with Maxi being able to backfill the 4 and 5 when he gets back.

All for it. And if that's the plan then I have a much better feeling that they'll get value out of him ATL hasn't been able to get, recently. 

My reluctance is based on my belief (from observation) that Kidd won't see things that way. If I'm wrong about that, things get more interesting, for sure.

(12-22-2022, 01:05 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Why not Collins at the 5?

(12-22-2022, 01:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Kidd won't see things that way

Have y'all seen Collins play this year?  Wood > Collins.  When I studied Wood's stats last year, I thought he'd be a C almost exclusively for the Mavs.  His PT over the last month proves that.  IMO, DFS and Bullock are too one dimensional to start.  Why are y'all not focusing on getting a two way wing (SF/SF), basically a DFS who can score ~20pts?

(12-22-2022, 01:15 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Why are y'all not focusing on getting a two way wing (SF/SF), basically a DFS who can score ~20pts?

Would love that, but players who fit that description are called "stars" and the cost to acquire them seems to be multiple 1sts and a couple of young players. 

You're basically describing Paul George.

(12-22-2022, 12:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Isn't taking the time to reach the journeyman with rare talent who you were able to acquire relatively cheaply one of the only ways to recover quickly from the hell-scape that has been the Mavs' plan for the past 2-3 seasons? Don't we think, given where they are today, right now, that this is at least worth giving the kid a chance to prove he can or can't do it? 

I, personally, have enjoyed watching the recent stretches wherein Wood is played as a solo big and shooting has provided him with space. If it turns out he can't perform well enough in those circumstances to win games, then fine, but my goodness, I sure think he's doing well enough already to justify extending this experiment a little longer. If they had just started with this approach, there's a chance he'd be even better by now. There's also a chance it would've been horrific, sure, but I doubt it, and it's not like they were tearing up the Western Conference before everyone got hurt.

IMHO, not only should the Mavs be trying/hoping to make things work with Wood, they should be DESPERATE to do so. If this was playing out for another team in less dire circumstances I might feel totally differently.

I'm not sure what you are arguing for.

I would argue that the Mavs have pulled out all the stops on trying to get him to the next level from day one. And are continuing to do so. And it's still problematic. And they are still hopeful, and will continue to try, I would expect, because even if he isn't a keeper, they need to make him sellable.

They aren't holding him back. They see his scoring skills. But they have been demanding (in exchange for minutes) he work to fix the flaws - which, if not fixed, will make him a disaster to re-sign, and which will keep him from being what they really need.

The reality is that Wood has bounced from team to team, and his scoring skills have not overcome his lack of skill and focus in the rest of the game. The Mavs have to make a huge commitment in a big hurry, or move on in a different direction.

And we all WANT him to be better (as do the Mavs, of course). But they are stuck in a time crunch on decisions with some hard deadlines. Right?

(12-22-2022, 12:55 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Feels like we are missing something here.

Ya, salaries don't match up there, but it was Pho who turned it down. Was Washington asking for a pick, or not? If not, Reggie Bullock is a pretty good comp to Jae, and I'd do that trade all day. Avdija isn't having such a great go this season either (been seeing lots of fan proposed trades for him at a low cost too). Would be fun to get both Deni and Rui in the following trade:

Rui/Deni for Bullock/Hardy/2nd or 2

(12-22-2022, 12:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I would love "both" too, but, and I'm no cap expert...

...do we think Cuban is going to take on Collins' contract and then commit to Wood longterm, even at his extension price, given the team's current financial status?

Tell me there's a reason to expect that and I'll be all over this dream. 

Wood             Powell
          Kleber
Collins (DFS)

DFS 
          Green
Hardaway
          Dinwiddie
Luka

...looks like improvement to me

That would be a massive tax bill, so hard to imagine they would do it.  You have Powell in the center rotation, but he is outgoing for Collins in this example.  You would still want to send out Timmy plus picks to get a two way player that can distribute the ball as that team needs more defense (especially starting) and playmaking.

(12-22-2022, 01:20 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure what you are arguing for.

I would argue that the Mavs have pulled out all the stops on trying to get him to the next level from day one. And are continuing to do so. And it's still problematic. And they are still hopeful, and will continue to try, I would expect, because even if he isn't a keeper, they need to make him sellable.

They aren't holding him back. They see his scoring skills. But they have been demanding (in exchange for minutes) he work to fix the flaws - which, if not fixed, will make him a disaster to re-sign, and which will keep him from being what they really need.

The reality is that Wood has bounced from team to team, and his scoring skills have not overcome his lack of skill and focus in the rest of the game. The Mavs have to make a huge commitment in a big hurry, or move on in a different direction.

And we all WANT him to be better (as do the Mavs, of course). But they are stuck in a time crunch on decisions with some hard deadlines. Right?

And I would argue that they were using him in the worst possible way, and one guaranteed not to be successful, right up until other players started getting hurt and forced their hands. 

You're trying to bring this back to a debate about whether the onus is on him to learn how the profession works or them to give him a role, just because, only that's NOT where the discussion lies.

What I'm talking about concerns positional strengths and skills, and how they can fit with others. Synergy. Skillsets. I'm fine (and have been since day 1) with them asking him to earn a role, but the role they wanted him to earn isn't one that A) is right for him or B) had any chance of actually helping the team. 

He is a center with uncommon athletic ability and foot speed for the position. He's a good shooter, which is worth 100x more when it results in the opposing center being pulled out of the paint. Giving the opponent a chance to matchup a forward with him is DUMB. He has a ways to go to become a consistent defender (not nearly as far as the groupthink here seems to believe, but he's not there yet) but has NO chance to be a good defender against forwards. None. He can, however, defend bigs, play screens at level or even higher, and defend the rim a bit. Those should be the skills they're asking him to become consistent with. That's all I'm saying. If he can, you're back in the game, timeline wise. If he can't, fine - back to the drawing board. 

I'm not asking them to give him anything, I just think the game Kidd is trying to play has been outmoded for the past decade.

(12-22-2022, 01:25 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]That would be a massive tax bill, so hard to imagine they would do it.  You have Powell in the center rotation, but he is outgoing for Collins in this example.  You would still want to send out Timmy plus picks to get a two way player that can distribute the ball as that team needs more defense (especially starting) and playmaking.

Yeah, I didn't think through the specifics much. The whole idea is probably pie-in-the-sky anyway, but event in the even it would actually be possible, I'm sure you're right that some of those names would be gone. 

I just think that Wood/Collins could play together, really. That's all. 

And again, I'd love your idea of moving Wood for Collins to platoon with Powell at CENTER. I don't love the idea of acquiring Collins to play the 4, especially if Wood is outgoing, and that's what I expect will be in the Mavs' heads should this happen - "let's try this again, only with Collins instead of Wood." I wouldn't expect the results to be much different. Spacing and foot speed need to get higher on their priorities list quick fast and in a hurry, I think, because that's how they gained so much momentum over the past few years.

I hope I'm articulating this well enough.

(12-22-2022, 01:25 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Rui/Deni for Bullock/Hardy/2nd or 2

Love Hachimura's potential. Ready to move on from Bullock. 

Not a fan of Avdija, and I honestly think Hardy might be much better than him as early as next season. Could be wrong about that, however.

(12-22-2022, 01:39 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Love Hachimura's potential. Ready to move on from Bullock. 

Not a fan of Avdija, and I honestly think Hardy might be much better than him as early as next season. Could be wrong about that, however.

I think Deni is one of those get him before he breaks out type of player. Also, Hardy is the reason to not add a first, if that was the Suns hangup.

(12-22-2022, 12:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]What's frustrating to me is basically this:

Here's Wood, a guy who very plainly can actually DO all of the things we thought Porzingis could do back when the original trade with NY happened. Turns out KP absolutely can't handle the ball in space and drive around people. He can't score in the post efficiently. He can't really be a plus on defense, because for every instance when his length causes problems in the paint, there are three instances of his statuesque stone feet getting your defense smoked when he's in space. He can't score efficiently from the midrange, or even create space for passable attempts...all he can do is that silly, inefficient, awkward "give up" of a turnaround shot. 

Wood has demonstrated that he can do all of that much better than I anticipated, and he's even showing signs of learning to make the right pass in 4 on 3's which I personally don't believe he could do when the season started. In short, contained within his immature, late blooming ass is a special offensive player, and I don't use that word lightly. 

It seems to me that the only thing holding him back is a lack of understanding of how consistent a good team's second or third most important player has to be, both in games and in practice. When I think of the word "coach" the association that immediately pops into my head is "teacher." 

I can understand the desire to give up on a guy who's hard to reach in most situations, but to look at it from a different angle, this team just fell on its face with one of the most disastrous big-swing trades (Porzingis) I can remember and then crippled themselves even further by bungling the Brunson situation more than I would've dared to imagine, beforehand. 

Isn't taking the time to reach the journeyman with rare talent who you were able to acquire relatively cheaply one of the only ways to recover quickly from the hell-scape that has been the Mavs' plan for the past 2-3 seasons? Don't we think, given where they are today, right now, that this is at least worth giving the kid a chance to prove he can or can't do it? 

I, personally, have enjoyed watching the recent stretches wherein Wood is played as a solo big and shooting has provided him with space. If it turns out he can't perform well enough in those circumstances to win games, then fine, but my goodness, I sure think he's doing well enough already to justify extending this experiment a little longer. If they had just started with this approach, there's a chance he'd be even better by now. There's also a chance it would've been horrific, sure, but I doubt it, and it's not like they were tearing up the Western Conference before everyone got hurt.

IMHO, not only should the Mavs be trying/hoping to make things work with Wood, they should be DESPERATE to do so. If this was playing out for another team in less dire circumstances I might feel totally differently.

I've had very similar thoughts on Wood vs Porzingis (although I would say I feel like we haven't really seen many mistakes from Wood on the 4 vs 3 situations from the get go, we just didn't get to see him in those situations much early on because of the rotations).  Right now the last few games have me somewhat optimistic that Maxi's injury may turn into a blessing in disguise for Wood's long term fit with this team.  When we first traded for Wood, my first thought was "cool, this is our Powell upgrade and now Powell can go play against second units again" but clearly Kidd and I didn't think similarly.  I saw Wood as someone who wasn't viewed as a good defender but certainly had the tools to be a good one where as Powell is a very smart defender but doesn't have the tools to make a play even when he is in the right spot.  I felt like all Wood had to do is learn how to play the back line and rotate correctly (not easy) and even if there are some small lapses he can recover to make plays enough to be an equal defender to Powell.  Feels like he's finally get a chance to showcase all that.  Last year's defense was never predicated on rim protection or size, it was always mobility so I thought surely Wood was coming here to play a lot of center.  I was really taken off guard when Kidd showed he wanted to go a different direction (and we all saw how quickly he reversed course).  

That was a lot of word vomit but I'm pretty late to this convo so...there ya go.

Also, I've been a huge advocate of going after Collins but I LOVE the idea of extending Wood and trading for Collins.  I think Wood/Collins/Maxi can all be paired together and can all go solo big which would be awesome to have.  I watched some of the Hawks game last night and the concerns around Collins' play this year seem super valid although it just feels like he's completely frozen out of the offense at this point.  That fanbase certainly wants him gone (just look at these comments: https://old.reddit.com/r/AtlantaHawks/co...efeat_the/ ).

I do wonder what they are planning on doing with Bogi.  McGee/Hardaway/Powell for Bogi/Collins works and while that's taking on a lot of long term debt for them that's pretty top heavy on the talent coming in so it may require a pick.  I have been thinking too about this idea of trading a pick that's way down the road and then after this draft we can still make a trade with earlier picks to acquire more talent.  Like trade the 2028 now and then the 2024 and 2026 this offseason with Dinwiddie and Bullock to go get whatever talent that can acquire.

I promise I didn't try to ramble just now but I just had a lot of random thoughts.

(12-22-2022, 01:53 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I think Deni is one of those get him before he breaks out type of player. Also, Hardy is the reason to not add a first, if that was the Suns hangup.

OK, but do you think Avdija's ceiling is 6moty or maybe even all-star? Because I'm low key that hopeful about Hardy. 

I don't hate it, value-wise, just for the Mavs because of their insanely bare cupboard of young players. It would take a LOT to get me to come off of Green or Hardy right now.

"I just think the game Kidd is trying to play has been outmoded for the past decade."

I would argue Kidd is simply using what Cuban the GM has chosen to assemble. And what Wood is willing to do.

Last season, Kidd had a playoff lineup with 1 big. Again this season, when he had more playable bigs than he does now, he has been starting a wing at PF. IMO that is what he is wanting to play.

And how you use Wood depends on what Wood will do. If Wood is going to be the single big, he MUST defend. He can't just zone out until the Mavs have the ball again. Or, conversely, if all he will do is play one end, the Mavs can't play him as the single big.

So I think Kidd has been playing Wood with another big because Wood has forced him to. In hopes Wood will learn to defend, and pay attention, and all that that, while he has some help.

The fact that he is now playing Wood as the single big, due to injury, let's hope it has positive results after months of preparation. We'll see. But I think the past months have been far different than you see them. I don't think Wood was ready at all (and Wood doesn't seem to think so either), and whether he can do it now remains to be seen. We'll see.

(12-22-2022, 02:03 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Last season, Kidd had a playoff lineup with 1 big. Again this season, when he had more playable bigs than he does now, he has been starting a wing at PF. IMO that is what he is wanting to play.

The season ended that way, but it certainly didn't begin that way. He started his tenure here trying to play Powell and Porzingis together, when anyone could see that Porzingis should've been played as a solo big.

As you suggest, I thought he had pivoted with the trade, but his second attempt to play two bigs staring out this season makes me think that's what he wants, and the pivot last year was just his way of making the best of things after realizing Porzingis needed to go for a variety of reasons. Personally, I don't think it's some coincidence (or just addition by subtraction) that the team started to perform better when that pivot was made, I think it's a superior approach.

He must not agree, however, because they signed McGee to that horrendous contract and once again, started this season trying to make a two-big approach work. I hate it.