I’m not understanding why the pick being protected or not has much bearing on whether or not we can trade our own picks. That protection on the 23 is really the only thing that matters. If we lift that protection, everything Dan and mvoss has said is true. Until then, I can’t see a way around what I said. We all know the 23 is going to convey next year, but that still doesn’t mean we can ignore the slightest of chances that it won’t.
(09-01-2022, 04:19 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I’m not understanding why the pick being protected or not has much bearing on whether or not we can trade our own picks. That protection on the 23 is really the only thing that matters. If we lift that protection, everything Dan and mvoss has said is true. Until then, I can’t see a way around what I said. We all know the 23 is going to convey next year, but that still doesn’t mean we can ignore the slightest of chances that it won’t.
It is a moot point now since I and Tankathon (they literally call the pick "unprotected") were wrong about the protections.
But, if the Boston pick were unprotected...the Stepien rule is a non-factor as it relates to Dallas having a first round pick in 23. They have one and can trade their 24 if they have it.
But, they might not have their 24 to trade as you point out. Having the Boston pick in 23 doesn't overcome our potential inability to trade 25 or even 26. That is why I said any deal Dallas might make at the TDL would have to send out contingent picks. Yes, you have to account for the fact you might not have tradeable picks in 24, 25 or 26. But, you MIGHT have the ability to trade 24 with an unprotected Boston 23 in hand. So, you CAN account for that possibility in the structure of the deal. That is why having an unprotected Boston 23 vs. a protected Boston 23 matters. It advances the possible timeline substantially in a deal at the TDL vs. not having an unprotected pick.
But, the highest and best use of our draft capital is this summer. Other than me in a prior post and now you, I've not seen much recognition that as soon as our 23 conveys we are immediately able to trade 24, 26, 28 and 30. We'd also be able to trade that Boston pick once we made it (as you pointed out). That makes for a powerful package of picks with which to go star chasing.
(09-01-2022, 06:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]It is a moot point now since I and Tankathon (they literally call the pick "unprotected") were wrong about the protections.
But, if the Boston pick were unprotected...the Stepien rule is a non-factor as it relates to Dallas having a first round pick in 23. They have one and can trade their 24 if they have it.
But, they might not have their 24 to trade as you point out. Having the Boston pick in 23 doesn't overcome our potential inability to trade 25 or even 26. That is why I said any deal Dallas might make at the TDL would have to send out contingent picks. Yes, you have to account for the fact you might not have tradeable picks in 24, 25 or 26. But, you MIGHT have the ability to trade 24 with an unprotected Boston 23 in hand. So, you CAN account for that possibility in the structure of the deal. That is why having an unprotected Boston 23 vs. a protected Boston 23 matters. It advances the possible timeline substantially in a deal at the TDL vs. not having an unprotected pick.
But, the highest and best use of our draft capital is this summer. Other than me in a prior post and now you, I've not seen much recognition that as soon as our 23 conveys we are immediately able to trade 24, 26, 28 and 30. We'd also be able to trade that Boston pick once we made it (as you pointed out). That makes for a powerful package of picks with which to go star chasing.
I see now, you’re not talking about using the Bos pick in the trade. That makes more sense now. I think that still only results in a total of 3 picks to trade at the TDL, regardless of which ones those specifically are though.
I’m thinking that using those 3 picks at the TDL also handicaps us by only being able to use 1 pick at the draft. That’s a total of 4 picks to use as opposed to being able to use 5 picks if we wait. We would also have access to lots of seconds because conveying the 23 also opens up the 25 since that’s tied into the 23 protections too. That’s 5 firsts and 6 seconds (2 from the trade). That is a lot of assets to offer a tear-it-down team
edit:(I’m looking at you Portland) or disgruntled players (keeping my eye on the OGA/SGA/Jonathan Isaac situations).
(09-01-2022, 06:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]It is a moot point now since I and Tankathon (they literally call the pick "unprotected") were wrong about the protections.
But, if the Boston pick were unprotected...the Stepien rule is a non-factor as it relates to Dallas having a first round pick in 23. They have one and can trade their 24 if they have it.
But, they might not have their 24 to trade as you point out. Having the Boston pick in 23 doesn't overcome our potential inability to trade 25 or even 26. That is why I said any deal Dallas might make at the TDL would have to send out contingent picks. Yes, you have to account for the fact you might not have tradeable picks in 24, 25 or 26. But, you MIGHT have the ability to trade 24 with an unprotected Boston 23 in hand. So, you CAN account for that possibility in the structure of the deal. That is why having an unprotected Boston 23 vs. a protected Boston 23 matters. It advances the possible timeline substantially in a deal at the TDL vs. not having an unprotected pick.
But, the highest and best use of our draft capital is this summer. Other than me in a prior post and now you, I've not seen much recognition that as soon as our 23 conveys we are immediately able to trade 24, 26, 28 and 30. We'd also be able to trade that Boston pick once we made it (as you pointed out). That makes for a powerful package of picks with which to go star chasing.
This has been my plan for a while. Trade a bushel of picks plus filler salary for a 2 way wing who can be a number 2 on offense as soon as our pick conveys. I had thought we would need to wait until after the draft to make that trade, but we could easily do what we did in the Wood trade and agree on the trade beforehand but execute the night of the draft. We only really have to wait for next season to be completed so we know the pick gets conveyed. That would allow us to include the Boston pick in the trade (which as you mention we would technically have to make).
This is why I don't get all of the doom and gloom. After next season Bertans will effectively be an expiring and Timmy's contract will be down to 17 mil. At that point we will have access to all of our picks and not really a bad asset. We won't have the assets to land a superstar, but I think we will have enough to get that player that makes us a contender.
(09-01-2022, 06:41 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I see now, you’re not talking about using the Bos pick in the trade. That makes more sense now. I think that still only results in a total of 3 picks to trade at the TDL, regardless of which ones those specifically are though.
I’m thinking that using those 3 picks at the TDL also handicaps us by only being able to use 1 pick at the draft. That’s a total of 4 picks to use as opposed to being able to use 5 picks if we wait. We would also have access to lots of seconds because conveying the 23 also opens up the 25 since that’s tied into the 23 protections too. That’s 5 firsts and 6 seconds (2 from the trade). That is a lot of assets to offer a tear-it-down team edit:(I’m looking at you Portland) or disgruntled players (keeping my eye on the OGA/SGA/Jonathan Isaac situations).
This is also the case with where we are at now without the trade being talked about. Currently we can use 2 firsts and 2 seconds in trade and then 1 first and 2 seconds after the draft, giving us a total of 3 firsts and 4 seconds to use. Waiting til after next draft we can use 4 firsts and 4 seconds. So patience IS a virtue!
Mitchell traded to the Cavs. Still waiting on details. Woj says three unprotected firsts and two pick swaps. I assume Sexton is included right?
If I was Ainge, I would rather bet on the Knicks sucking over the Cavs, who have a real nice young nucleus. Maybe the Knicks did not want to include their own picks....and there other picks are pretty luke warm.
(09-01-2022, 02:40 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Mitchell traded to the Cavs. Still waiting on details. Woj says three unprotected firsts and two pick swaps. I assume Sexton is included right?
If I was Ainge, I would rather bet on the Knicks sucking over the Cavs, who have a real nice young nucleus. Maybe the Knicks did not want to include their own picks....and there other picks are pretty luke warm.
So Lauri Markkannen, Collin Sexton and Agbaji....three more bodies for Utah.
(09-01-2022, 02:40 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Mitchell traded to the Cavs. Still waiting on details. Woj says three unprotected firsts and two pick swaps. I assume Sexton is included right?
If I was Ainge, I would rather bet on the Knicks sucking over the Cavs, who have a real nice young nucleus. Maybe the Knicks did not want to include their own picks....and there other picks are pretty luke warm.
So Lauri Markkannen, Collin Sexton and Agbaji....three more bodies for Utah.
I like this trade for Cleveland....especially if they did not consider Sexton part of their core. Lauri is good, but replaceable. This is a good barometer for Dallas in the next 18 months. Can they put together a similar package in time. Right now, they feel a little short on younger players.
(09-01-2022, 02:45 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I like this trade for Cleveland....especially if they did not consider Sexton part of their core. Lauri is good, but replaceable. This is a good barometer for Dallas in the next 18 months. Can they put together a similar package in time. Right now, they feel a little short on younger players.
Don’t target Utah in trade and go for the Dejuante Murray types and we won’t have to worry about young players.
Our best chance to win a championship is to trade a M for a C.
Garland
Mitchell
X
Mobley
Allen
(09-01-2022, 02:45 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I like this trade for Cleveland....especially if they did not consider Sexton part of their core. Lauri is good, but replaceable. This is a good barometer for Dallas in the next 18 months. Can they put together a similar package in time. Right now, they feel a little short on younger players.
I don't think Lauri is much of an asset at 17 and he did not make a lot of sense on that team anyways. I think it was clear they had no interest in holding on to Sexton. Does 4 for 72 make Sexton an asset? Probably given his youth, but I have never been interested due to his lack of defense and supposed on court selfishness. The kid is like another first (and at 14 probably one of the higher ones they will get from Cleveland) so that is basically 4 firsts and 2 swaps with a maybe asset in Sexton. We can come fairly close to that offer next offseason.
Wow, the discussion of a trade without all of the usual hand-wringing of "Why didn't the Mavs do such-and-such and get involved/what are they gonna do now etc. etc. etc." Of course, that's because our expectations are in the sewer right now, but oh well, silver linings.
I thought Mitchell would fetch more.
Clarkson has got to be available right?
(09-01-2022, 03:39 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I thought Mitchell would fetch more.
Clarkson has got to be available right?
For sure. I expect they at least get a first round pick for Clarkson. Bogdanovich also probably gets a first...I think.
Conley won't. I would expect Clarkston and Bogdanovich are not on the roster come opening night. Conley may be tougher to move.
I actually like the trade for both sides. Utah is now swimming in draft capital and can fully tank away while trying to salvage Sexton and maybe getting some extra trade value for Lauri later. The time was right for Cleveland to strike and Mitchell fits that team much better than he would have fit in NY
Cleveland putting together a scary team. They might not have a top 10 superstar player but that’s four amazing relatively young players.
(09-01-2022, 03:47 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [ -> ]Cleveland putting together a scary team. They might not have a top 10 superstar player but that’s four amazing relatively young players.
The East is developing some really good teams. Won't be the usual walk in the park when playing that schedule.
It Appears Barrett was of interest to Utah. Knicks balked at including Grimes with two unprotected picks and instead wanted to replace Grimes with Quickley.
One of the names that rarely gets mentioned in Jazz rumors. Malik Beasley. Personally I am out because of the off court stuff. But I wouldn´t be suprised if a desperate team (and that includes the Mavs) will offer a first for him at the deadline. Just looking at the available talent he is one of the best 3&D options that is stuck on a bad team.
(09-02-2022, 12:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]One of the names that rarely gets mentioned in Jazz rumors. Malik Beasley. Personally I am out because of the off court stuff. But I wouldn´t be suprised if a desperate team (and that includes the Mavs) will offer a first for him at the deadline. Just looking at the available talent he is one of the best 3&D options that is stuck on a bad team.
Isn’t he a carbon copy of THJ?
No defense. No passing. Very little dribbling. Streaky high volume shooter.
(09-02-2022, 01:03 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [ -> ]Isn’t he a carbon copy of THJ?
No defense. No passing. Very little dribbling. Streaky high volume shooter.
I think he is a slightly better defender. Also has a bigger sample size (more seasons) of elite shooting. And is only 25 years old. Just talking about talent and upside he would be my favorite among the Jazz vets (again...off court stuff is a big no no).
Bogdanovic is probably better right now but already 33. Would take Beasley over Conley, Clarkson and Gay.