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There is a long history of players playing better in Miami than their other stops.  Josh Richardson lived off his Miami play for years.   There is no way I am interested in a guy who has struggled in that system who still has a ton of money coming from him.   Plus, every player is different but he was not a draftable prospect when he came into the league.   The warning signs are glaring red for him.   I just can't think we would have any interest in him.

(01-12-2023, 10:58 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]If all this is is a straight up deal, I’d agree with you.  My assumption is Miami would pay at least their 2023 pick in such a deal.  Having that as a chip now or in the summer is a game changer.  It isn’t only about DR vs. THJ (and paying an extra year).  It is about the other things getting a pick could unlock.

I also think too much is made of DR’s current season and not enough of his total body of work.  Very few of us thought Dinwiddie would contribute anything here because most here had a myopic view of who he was based on what he was producing in DC.  Turns out a change of scenery and playing with Luka changed his efficiency pretty dramatically.  It isn’t hard to look at DR’s recent history and project the same thing as we could looking back at Dinwiddie’s pre-injury season in Brooklyn.  Will DR ever become a good defender…no.  But Tim hasn’t been anything special historically either.  I think the two players would be roughly equivalent here and Miami would have to pay something for us to eat the extra year of what turned out to be bloated contracts for both players.

I did mention the pick.  I just don't think its worth it.  The real disagreement is on the suggestion that DR and Timmy are equivalent players.  His profile fits Bertans much more than it does Timmy, both offensively and defensively.  He shoots one 2 pointer a game.  He is a true 3 point specialist on offense just like Bertans.  I'm sure he will have more spacing than he did at Miami, but it didn't really seem to make that big of a difference for Bertans.  I'm really skeptical we are going to utilize him any better than we did Bertans.

On defense, Timmy has made real strides this season.  With a coach and system that is more focused on defense than what he is used to, he seems to have reached a point where he is no longer a negative on that side of the court.  DR already has a coach and system focused on defense, and he has a lot more help around him that what he will have here.  

Its hard for me to see DR not go down the same road as Bertans.  He will get used sparingly as a three point specialist off the bench and continue to be one of the worst non max contracts in the NBA (just like Bertans).  Timmy on the other hand has been creeping up towards his offensive production of a few years ago while not being a negative on defense.  I think that contract is approaching neutral value and might even be an asset by the end of the season.  

I understand the interest in taking a step back to take a step forward, but this feels more like taking a permanent step back.

(01-12-2023, 10:47 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]The trouble with sending out a pick for a non-difference maker like FVV is it kills the ability to later make the move for the second star.  FVV is not that guy.  He makes you better, but not better enough.  And now the cupboard is bare.  

So, it isn’t just the calculus of whether FVV is ‘worth’ the outgoing package.  It is the impact the outgoing package has on what else we can do.

So I totally agree with the impact of sending out a first regarding future packages.  I'm just higher on FVV than most are and think he is more of a difference maker than you do.  I could be wrong.

(01-12-2023, 10:58 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I also think too much is made of DR’s current season and not enough of his total body of work. .

This comment intrigued me, so I went to look up the numbers and see how much of an outlier this season is.
 
Some observations:
1 Yes this season is DR's worst.  
2 However, his high point as a shooter was season 2. That was elite, 47% overall and 45% on 3s, with a TS of 68%. (It must be noted that as a whole, he didn't offer much else - his PER was only 13.1).
3 Since then, his percentages have declined every year, year after year. He's in year 5, and it's the 4th year of a train going downhill.
4 Here's the progression of all those numbers starting in year 2
His NBA season 2 -- 47  45  68  13.1
His NBA season 3 -- 44  41  63  11.0
His NBA season 4 -- 40  37  57  10.6
His NBA season 5 -- 37  33  53   7.9
5 I have to remember that his offense is his calling card, and he's a bad defender.

When I look at that, I don't trust his ability to "rebound" to being a better player. He has in theory been trying to do that for several years, and instead of getting better, he keeps getting worse and worse. Wouldn't he and MIA fix whatever it is, if it was readily fixable?

I have to believe MIA actually signed him to this deal after yr 3 expecting that (a) the next year he would reverse his trend (which did not happen, but instead got even worse, and for two consecutive years now), and (b) they could find a way to trade him and get rewarded (which his being shopped has been out there for a couple years, it seems, with him being an integral part of one pursuit or another that fails).

Personally, I would not want to take MIA's place. After this year, they are stuck with the 3 biggest salaries of his deal, THREE more seasons of about 19.5M per. He's getting more and more unplayable (I wonder if the league figured out how to play him) with his minutes now down to about 18. Lots of DNPs. Low in the rotation unless they have injuries. Lots of injuries himself (he's out for a month now with a hurt finger). I don't trust the ability to get any value from him and would steer way clear.

Based on Fisher article who is available, a couple of ideas:

1. Powel for Holmes and draft capital
2. Bullock and 2 SRP to whatever losing team that has cap space or TE. Mavs create TE and take Thybulle into it (Philly wants to get under tax). We could also take Korkmaz, if they want

(01-12-2023, 01:43 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]2. Bullock and 2 SRP to whatever losing team that has cap space or TE. Mavs create TE and take Thybulle into it (Philly wants to get under tax). We could also take Korkmaz, if they want

This seems too good to be true. Thybulle is one of the best defenders in the league. He can't shoot but his defense more than makes up for it. To get him for just Bullock and some 2nds seems unrealistic. 


I'd love a move like that.

So, everyone wants everything for the players they’re “willing to let go”. No trades until prices come down.

(01-12-2023, 04:40 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So, everyone wants everything for the players they’re “willing to let go”. No trades until prices come down.

NBA trades would never happen if there wasn't a deadline.

(01-12-2023, 04:40 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So, everyone wants everything for the players they’re “willing to let go”. No trades until prices come down.

I feel like we're living in a lala land NBA.

Every player wants the max. Teams want multiple firsts for aging role players on expiring deals. Insane to me. Nobody wants to be the "loser" in a deal so no deal is being made.

(01-12-2023, 04:46 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Nobody wants to be the "loser" in a deal so no deal is being made.

Yeah, it has been trending this way for years. This new generation of GM's are total pansies, just trying to avoid mistakes, not trying to go for it. There are exceptions, but many of them end up looking like that Gobert trade and scare everyone else into inaction. 

Love him or hate him, Donnie wasn't scared to draw up a trade on a napkin in which 5-7 players and hundreds of millions of dollars get swapped. The Van Exel/LaFrentz deal comes to mind, specifically. The days of those "gunslinger" gm's seem to be fading away.

(01-12-2023, 04:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, it has been trending this way for years. This new generation of GM's are total pansies, just trying to avoid mistakes, not trying to go for it. There are exceptions, but many of them end up looking like that Gobert trade and scare everyone else into inaction. 

Love him or hate him, Donnie wasn't scared to draw up a trade on a napkin in which 5-7 players and hundreds of millions of dollars get swapped. The Van Exel/LaFrentz deal comes to mind, specifically. The days of those "gunslinger" gm's seem to be fading away.

Agreed. Not trying to turn this into a Donnie discussion but I've started to reminisce of his time as a GM. 

I actually felt Donnie's trade making was his number 1 best attribute. Sure he had some misses (who doesn't?) but when he hit, it was as good of a hit as you can make. And like you said he was never deterred from trying to hit.

He failed at almost every other aspect as a GM though. Drafting was an after thought. Free agency made the franchise a mockery under his watch and still continues to be. Although like we all suspect that Cuban is the true man behind the curtain so we can't fully blame Donnie there.


Nico so far has done.... some good and bad? I loved the CWood trade, although I never felt it was going to be a super home run. So far it's been above average. The Bullock signing was great when it happened (not so much now). He drafted Hardy which I felt was the best choice. DFS and Maxi extensions were great value. 

But he let He Who Shall Not Be Named go. Signed Timmy to a mediocre to bad contract. The McGee signing looked good on paper, but in reality it's probably one of the more egregious mistakes the franchise has made in the last 5 years. He didn't really extract as much value as he could from the KP trade (though it's hard to judge if KP can bring more now than when the Mavs traded him). 

What else... Oh right he has still failed to put together a capable team around Luka in the 2 years he's been in charge. It's a sham. Doesn't really give me confidence in the future, but who knows what can happen? The Mavs STILL have the 2nd best NBA regular season record since 2000. They've made the playoffs 18 times since 2000 as well. While Nico hasn't been apart of the majority of that success, Cuban has. SO for all the shit we give Cuban he has been apart of that success. Lets hope he hasn't lost his drive and become a wuss of an owner.

(01-12-2023, 02:09 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]This seems too good to be true. Thybulle is one of the best defenders in the league. He can't shoot but his defense more than makes up for it. To get him for just Bullock and some 2nds seems unrealistic. 


I'd love a move like that.

I think Bullock might be kinda moveable, because of his playoffs last year. Thybulle is rather seen as one of the worst offensive players in the league. Basically the Frank N. similarity. Thybulle always turn straight useless in the playoffs for the Sixers. Morey see's the 3 pt shooting upside with Bullock and he might be interested.

Another opportunity: Thibs liking the idea of Bullock back. Where you prolly can swap him 1 on 1 with Reddish. Not the biggest Reddish fan, but he is young, tho count me in.

The biggest roadblock might be that Kidd still overvalues Bullock. Not sure if its a good sign, to get benched & two games later he started playing 41 min again
Kidd answers to Bullock questions make me somehwhat worried. That Kidd thinks if the shooting returns for Bullock, he will be the same Bullock as last season.

"Kidd thinks if the shooting returns for Bullock, he will be the same Bullock as last season."

But that is the issue, right? And Bullock was consistently great shooting in the playoffs. And he has been solid to excellent the bulk of his whole career.

I'm one who is puzzled over the change this season. But I think he's more likely to be much better later this season, rather than to accept he permanently forgot how to shoot since last season.

(01-12-2023, 07:48 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]"Kidd thinks if the shooting returns for Bullock, he will be the same Bullock as last season."

But that is the issue, right? And Bullock was consistently great shooting in the playoffs. And he has been solid to excellent the bulk of his whole career.

I'm one who is puzzled over the change this season. But I think he's more likely to be much better later this season, rather than to accept he permanently forgot how to shoot since last season.

Is shooting his biggest problem? Would argue that the apparent lack of lateral quickness resulting in terrible onball defense is his biggest issue. In the playoffs he was chasing guys around the perimeter and playing full court press against CP3 and Curry. A few month later he cannot stay in front of random 3rd string guards.