I don't watch a ton of Hawks basketball but Collins just never jumps off the page to me when I do see them play. Maybe he's just ultra consistent and that makes me hypocritical as wild swings in play is one of my major knocks on THJ.
(12-22-2022, 10:48 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I don't watch a ton of Hawks basketball but Collins just never jumps off the page to me when I do see them play. Maybe he's just ultra consistent and that makes me hypocritical as wild swings in play is one of my major knocks on THJ.
No, you are not hypocritical, you are just hypercritical of THJ
(12-22-2022, 10:48 AM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I don't watch a ton of Hawks basketball but Collins just never jumps off the page to me when I do see them play. Maybe he's just ultra consistent and that makes me hypocritical as wild swings in play is one of my major knocks on THJ.
Ive been saying this for 2 years. Our scheme and Luka effect could make him a star...but I dont ever see a star when I watch him play. I just dont know if you pay a high price for a guy you are just plugging into your scheme based on stats.
Hes wildly considered small but does get rebounds. Hes widely considered as a guy that cant create on offense but does have a sweet stroke from 3 and smooth close to the basket floater.
Other than that...I just dont see what the stink is unless its just looking at stats. The eye test doesnt scream "get this guy at whatever cost" to me. And...I think Mavs team is filled with spreadsheet players that look good on a computer screen but cant play NBA basketball very well. So, imo...the eye test does matter some.
(12-22-2022, 10:40 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not against the trade, really, because I definitely don't want to lose another asset for nothing, and Wood scares me to death in that way, and with the chance that he just never becomes consistent.
However, put me in the camp who believes the Collins we'd see here every night wouldn't measure up to the Collins that this board has been fantasizing about for 2-3 seasons.
I think he's best as an undersized 5, and maybe even a little below average at the 4. Since I don't think many people interested in the trade want to play an undersized 5, and I'm almost sure Kidd doesn't want to build around that as a concept, I think maybe there would be a lot of people disappointed about two weeks after driving that player off the lot.
Wood, on the other hand, seems to have the perfect attributes (physically, at least) to be a starting center to me, as I have typed on this forum so often that people are starting throw up in their mouths when they read my posts.
In conclusion, here are my wishes, ranked:
1) use Wood in a package for someone truly difference making (like Siakim)
2) extend or re-sign Wood to be given the chance to be the team's MAIN center and be the offensive focus with LUKA
3) Trade him for someone, just to trade him and not lose another asset...(like Collins)
4) Get Brunson'd again
This is a reasonable take and we can all agree on 1 and 4. I would switch 2 and 3.
One thing I've been wondering about is your point about Kidd not wanting to build around an undersized 5. I'm not so sure on this. Very few true 5 men can play the switching/run around style that we want to play. I think they want a bullpen approach with the 5 but want to close games with Maxi or a Maxi type at the 5.
I do think theirs an argument that a Collins/Maxi frontcourt closing games is a better long term option than Wood/Maxi.
Then again I'm not against going Collins/Wood and teach these guys exactly how you want them to defend. At some point MBT has to stop having blue goggles on when looking at Maxi and Powell types playing the "right way" and start acquiring the most talent possible and trusting your coaching staff.
Guys who play their role really well are great. Its better to have really talented basketball players.
(12-22-2022, 10:22 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that, and it's all valid...but something in the back of my mind is still screaming "just extend Wood!"
Just a feeling, I suppose.
I'm fine with either option as long as the extension occurs prior to the TDL.
Ya, build around Luka/Wood/Din/Green. Use all assets other than those 4 to get a DFS who has the ability to grow into 20pts/game. Candidates?
O.G. Anunoby
Gary Trent Jr.
Kevin Porter Jr.
Jalen Williams
AJ Griffin
Jaden McDaniels
Saddiq Bey
Ideally, OG. Trade Powell + Hardy + 1st round pick. Upgrade McGee for an 18min C at trade deadline.
10-man Rotation
PG - Luka, Kemba, Din
SG - Green, THJ
SF - Din, DFS, Bullock
PF - OG, DFS
C - Wood, Upgraded McGee
(12-22-2022, 10:22 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that, and it's all valid...but something in the back of my mind is still screaming "just extend Wood!"
Just a feeling, I suppose.
I get it too, the subtle cautionary voice in the back of my head is reminding me what you said when we got him. What happens when he gets the contract signed?
(12-22-2022, 12:27 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]What happens when he gets the contract signed?
This is DEFINITELY a valid concern, and a very real reason to consider trading him.
I guess I'm STILL just more excited about Wood (at
center) than I am about Collins (at the 4).
I’m with you KL. Would rather keep trying to make CW a viable playoff ball Center. Also, if we can extend Wood at 4yrs-60m I think that’s a good gamble to take. Worst case he’s still a hugely talented offensive player. Would be making less than THJ or Bertans. I’m more sure what Wood’s camp would think. Probably that they could get that same deal or maybe more from us or another team this summer anyway.
What's frustrating to me is basically this:
Here's Wood, a guy who very plainly can actually DO all of the things we thought Porzingis could do back when the original trade with NY happened. Turns out KP absolutely can't handle the ball in space and drive around people. He can't score in the post efficiently. He can't really be a plus on defense, because for every instance when his length causes problems in the paint, there are three instances of his statuesque stone feet getting your defense smoked when he's in space. He can't score efficiently from the midrange, or even create space for passable attempts...all he can do is that silly, inefficient, awkward "give up" of a turnaround shot.
Wood has demonstrated that he can do all of that much better than I anticipated, and he's even showing signs of learning to make the right pass in 4 on 3's which I personally don't believe he could do when the season started. In short, contained within his immature, late blooming ass is a special offensive player, and I don't use that word lightly.
It seems to me that the only thing holding him back is a lack of understanding of how consistent a good team's second or third most important player has to be, both in games and in practice. When I think of the word "coach" the association that immediately pops into my head is "teacher."
I can understand the desire to give up on a guy who's hard to reach in most situations, but to look at it from a different angle, this team just fell on its face with one of the most disastrous big-swing trades (Porzingis) I can remember and then crippled themselves even further by bungling the Brunson situation more than I would've dared to imagine, beforehand.
Isn't taking the time to reach the journeyman with rare talent who you were able to acquire relatively cheaply one of the only ways to recover quickly from the hell-scape that has been the Mavs' plan for the past 2-3 seasons? Don't we think, given where they are today, right now, that this is at least worth giving the kid a chance to prove he can or can't do it?
I, personally, have enjoyed watching the recent stretches wherein Wood is played as a solo big and shooting has provided him with space. If it turns out he can't perform well enough in those circumstances to win games, then fine, but my goodness, I sure think he's doing well enough already to justify extending this experiment a little longer. If they had just started with this approach, there's a chance he'd be even better by now. There's also a chance it would've been horrific, sure, but I doubt it, and it's not like they were tearing up the Western Conference before everyone got hurt.
IMHO, not only should the Mavs be trying/hoping to make things work with Wood, they should be DESPERATE to do so. If this was playing out for another team in less dire circumstances I might feel totally differently.
(12-22-2022, 10:26 AM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]The question i keep asking myself is can we have both? Wood and Collins. And how would that work?
I would be of a mind to try...
They are both diverse enough in their games offensively (read: NOT Dwight Powell) to not clog up the offense nor completely abandon the inside when they are on the floor together. Defensively is the real question in that COULD one or the other be solid enough at the 4 to keep the team from being completely inept?
Ultimately what it takes to get Collins from Atlanta is the question:
I would think that a package of Powell, McGee, Frank and Theo covers the salary commitment but how much of a tip should each team get? ATL is giving up the best player in the package but Dallas is taking on 60 million in total salary after this season (JC - McGee)
IF Atlanta demands picks, the price changes... Atlanta can have a conditional (Top 5 protected) pick swap in '24/'25, conditional (Top 3 protected) #1 pick '25/'26/'27, conditional (Top 5 protected) pick swap in '26/'27/'28 and they take McGee and Bertans *
* The conditions are based on NY receiving the '23 pick; any use of the protections changes the subsequent pick swap to a (similarly protected) conveyed pick.
If possible the rotations could look like:
Luka & THJ/Din & Kemba - guards
DFS/Reggie/Green - SF
Wood & Collins/DFS & Maxi-Wood-Collins - Bigs
This SHOULD really limit the exposure of Maxi during the regular season for a healthy and rested playoff rotation/injury insurance piece.
Start together with Luka, THJ and DFS
Sub with Reggie for Wood
Sub with Kemba for Luka; Josh for THJ; Din for DFS
Sub with Wood for JC
Start 2nd qtr with both bigs Din, Kemba, and Reggie/Green/DFS
Sub Luka for Wood, THJ for Reggie, Green for DFS (vice versa)
Sub Wood for JC;
I would love "both" too, but, and I'm no cap expert...
...do we think Cuban is going to take on Collins' contract and then commit to Wood longterm, even at his extension price, given the team's current financial status?
Tell me there's a reason to expect that and I'll be all over this dream.
Wood Powell
Kleber
Collins (DFS)
DFS
Green
Hardaway
Dinwiddie
Luka
...looks like improvement to me
(12-22-2022, 12:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Here's Wood, a guy who very plainly can actually DO all of the things we thought Porzingis could do back when the original trade with NY happened.
YES.
This is why I have been so frustrated with Kidd and his handling of Wood. It took very little time to see that Wood is by far the most talented guy Luka has ever played with (better than KP).
Luka has had to learn consistency too and he has been given the LONGEST leash imaginable. Heaven forbid the Mavs give Wood a long leash while they TEACH and GROOM him to be what he can. So frustrating.
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