(12-27-2022, 11:49 AM)Nowitzki Way Wrote: [ -> ]Bullock / Powell for Collins. If that can be framework of a deal to acquire him, you do it.
Even if it means no to re-signing Wood for sure?
Let me make the counter argument: if that's the case (I bet it is), then you might as well include Wood in the deal, tbh. Their games overlap almost completely, and Powell might be re-signable this summer at a significantly lowered cost.
I just don't see Cuban taking on that Collins contract AND re-signing Wood.
(12-27-2022, 11:44 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, to be totally honest, that proposed deal, if true, kind of makes it seem like nobody really wants Collins.
Its kind of crazy. I wonder if they would take Wood + McGee? We could turn our failed offseason into Collins. Then sign a vet min center for depth like we should have done in the first place.
(12-27-2022, 11:52 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I wonder if they would take Wood + McGee?
NOW, we're talking about something I might be able to get behind.
(12-27-2022, 11:52 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Even if it means no to re-signing Wood for sure?
Let me make the counter argument: if that's the case (I bet it is), then you might as well include Wood in the deal, tbh. Their games overlap almost completely, and Powell might be re-signable this summer at a significantly lowered cost.
I just don't see Cuban taking on that Collins contract AND re-signing Wood.
I would still use Bullock/Powell framework with ATL for Collins and then trade Wood elsewhere for something else. IF giving Cwood the extension is off the table.
Honestly, IF Collins' money is as distasteful for teams as it appears to be at the moment, I might try to view this as a way to unload McGee and Bertans.
I want Wood + JC. I get why others wouldn't, but that is what I want and what I think could be pretty amazing (who knows). I would want them to play TOGETHER and to be able to play alone when the other sits or is hurt.
(12-27-2022, 11:51 AM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]Correct. Its short sighted as well. The Dinwiddie conversation is going to be the next one. He may not be perfect but are we really going to let him walk without an extension of some kind? Bertans and THJ become far more moveable as time goes on. Even if you cant move them, why not bite the bullet now and let those guys walk in the future to recalibrate the cap sheet.
My issue is that the Mavs never seem to cash in on their assets. Just constantly mismanaged.
(12-27-2022, 11:57 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I want Wood + JC. I get why others wouldn't, but that is what I want and what I think could be pretty amazing (who knows). I would want them to play TOGETHER and to be able to play alone when the other sits or is hurt.
Oh, it's not that I don't think they could play together. I think they probably could. I'm just trying to think like I would be if I was an owner trying to balance the team's needs with my wish not to piss away millions of dollars.
They do have some significant overlap, usage wise. I think maybe it's a little more likely to be considered (maybe?) now that Kleber is hurt, but I'm 99.9% sure this would amount to an "either/or" scenario, if not now, when the deal is being made, then for sure over the summer when planning next season's financials.
(12-27-2022, 12:01 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, it's not that I don't think they could play together. I think they probably could. I'm just trying to think like I would be if I was an owner trying to balance the team's needs with my wish not to piss away millions of dollars.
They do have some significant overlap, usage wise. I think maybe it's a little more likely to be considered (maybe?) now that Kleber is hurt, but I'm 99.9% sure this would amount to an "either/or" scenario, if not now, when the deal is being made, then for sure over the summer when planning next season's financials.
Yeah, I hear you....from Cuban's perspective (ugh) your logic makes sense. It just sucks that the Mavs cannot invest their money in the roster properly.
(12-27-2022, 11:57 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I want Wood + JC. I get why others wouldn't, but that is what I want and what I think could be pretty amazing (who knows). I would want them to play TOGETHER and to be able to play alone when the other sits or is hurt.
I get that fantasy, but the offensive overlap is probably to the point of diminishing returns and I'm not sure how the defense would work as well. It would be an interesting experiment, but the tax bill would be enormous. I get the frustrations with being limited by stupid roster decisions in the past, but I can understand Cuban not wanting to pay that kind of tax bill without having a legit contender, and I don't think adding Collins to this current team is a legit contender.
(12-27-2022, 11:57 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I want Wood + JC. I get why others wouldn't, but that is what I want and what I think could be pretty amazing (who knows). I would want them to play TOGETHER and to be able to play alone when the other sits or is hurt.
I’m kinda with KL on this. If we traded at the deadline for him, we have limited knowledge of how the duo will work together. It also gives us 1 option with Wood (just like with JB after the TDL last year), you have to be the highest bidder for him. Now, if we can put together another trade that sends Wood out, like okc suggested, that could be the best thing for us. Get Collins at all time low price, sell Wood at all time high price.
(12-27-2022, 12:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I get the frustrations with being limited by stupid roster decisions in the past, but I can understand Cuban not wanting to pay that kind of tax bill without having a legit contender, and I don't think adding Collins to this current team is a legit contender.
For sure, I get that. I just think trades, trades, and more trades along with good drafting is the way out of the mess. I think biding their time and just letting contracts expire so they can go back to having money for free agents is the wrong way forward.
(12-27-2022, 12:08 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Get Collins at all time low price, sell Wood at all time high price.
I would not be upset with this at all.
(12-27-2022, 11:34 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, arguments could be made for either. And, to this point, Vanderbilt has been a little slow to develop on the offense end (showing improvement this year) but he's a special defender in the body type the Mavs don't have with an ideal motor/athletic skillset. Think bigger than DFS, but clearly able to play forward, with a Powell-like motor. Tough, too.
In fact, if you didn’t already have Dorian (or dealt him for something else), V and Green would be the kinds of guys you’d want next to starting center Wood to try to make him more passable as a defender.
Today’s 77 Heaven Podcast (I got halfway through it driving to the office) takes a dim view of Wood being a viable starting center in the playoffs. One of the panelists said something like “you just can’t do it” as it stands no chance of working.
Two questions: Is there a playoff team that Wood would start for? Other than maybe Charlotte, is there a cap room team this summer that would pay more than the MLE for Wood?
As a reminder, when Wood was traded TO Houston after a very promising season, Detroit sent (yes, I said sent) a Future First and a Future LA second with Wood for Ariza’s corpse, Isaiah Stewart (who had just been taken 16th) and a future second. Net out the seconds and net out the protected future first for Stewart at #16 and Houston basically give up Ariza for Wood. Two years later, Houston got a later first and had to eat some contracts for Wood. I don’t think Wood is nearly as highly valued around the league as we think he is. His per minute stats this season are nearly identical to that season in Detroit.
(12-27-2022, 11:32 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]If this is the case, this is so incredibly frustrating. 1) Because of the Mavs overpaying a bunch of scrubs and having bloated money on the roster and 2) because the Mavs are going to have to eat the luxury tax if they are going to dig themselves out of this roster debacle.
Bloated deals cluttering the roster. Yes. From day one as owner, money-whipping the situation was Cuban's go-to move -- "I'll just overpay to get this done, and then worry about the consequences later" -- in lieu of learning the disciplines of expert evaluation, negotiation, and development through the draft that allow a team to get the right talent at the right price.
Up to the title, Cuban's workaround was to keep paying until he had enough talent (even if a lot of it was overpaid).
Now he won't. Once Cuban runs out of money and picks to overpay with, after overpaying on deal after deal, they end up with a roster with overpaid players and not enough talent, and no assets to get more. And here we are.
(12-27-2022, 12:10 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]In fact, if you didn’t already have Dorian (or dealt him for something else), V and Green would be the kinds of guys you’d want next to starting center Wood to try to make him more passable as a defender.
Today’s 77 Heaven Podcast (I got halfway through it driving to the office) takes a dim view of Wood being a viable starting center in the playoffs. One of the panelists said something like “you just can’t do it” as it stands no chance of working.
I agree with your point that a Vanderbilt type is very close to the ideal 4 to pair with Wood.
As I'm sure you can predict, I am not ready to agree with what the panelist said in point #2.
But again, IF he/you are correct, just dump the guy at the first available opportunity. I have almost no interest in Wood in the role he started the season playing, and that interest would probably tick to zero the second I learned what he's asking for, contractually.
(12-27-2022, 12:06 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I get that fantasy, but the offensive overlap is probably to the point of diminishing returns and I'm not sure how the defense would work as well. It would be an interesting experiment, but the tax bill would be enormous. I get the frustrations with being limited by stupid roster decisions in the past, but I can understand Cuban not wanting to pay that kind of tax bill without having a legit contender, and I don't think adding Collins to this current team is a legit contender.
We have a serious talent deficit. Its very likely you cant get to a title contender in one move. If you have the opportunity to acquire legitimate young talent for bench filler role players you've got to do it.
As for the fit, offensively i think we underestimate how dynamic it would be to have two big men with interchangeable skillsets. I think its critical for us to get away from "role" players and start emphasizing multi faceted players. What makes life so difficult on Luka is not the ball dominance but rather the over abundance of one dimensional players. Other teams would have to match up with Cwood/Collins and not many would be capable.
Defense would be more of a challenge. IMO you rely on your coaching staff. Were watching a bit of development with Cwood as they are trying to "coach" him how to play defense in the Powell role. Collins would need to play more of the Maxi role here and I do believe he has the athleticism to do it.
Next year you have a big rotation of Cwood, Collins, Maxi. Pretty versatile and as Kamm pointed out you always have one of Cwood/Collins on the floor.
(12-27-2022, 12:20 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]We have a serious talent deficit. Its very likely you cant get to a title contender in one move. If you have the opportunity to acquire legitimate young talent for bench filler role players you've got to do it.
As for the fit, offensively i think we underestimate how dynamic it would be to have two big men with interchangeable skillsets. I think its critical for us to get away from "role" players and start emphasizing multi faceted players. What makes life so difficult on Luka is not the ball dominance but rather the over abundance of one dimensional players. Other teams would have to match up with Cwood/Collins and not many would be capable.
Defense would be more of a challenge. IMO you rely on your coaching staff. Were watching a bit of development with Cwood as they are trying to "coach" him how to play defense in the Powell role. Collins would need to play more of the Maxi role here and I do believe he has the athleticism to do it.
Next year you have a big rotation of Cwood, Collins, Maxi. Pretty versatile and as Kamm pointed out you always have one of Cwood/Collins on the floor.
We are eye-to-eye on this.
(12-27-2022, 12:10 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Wood being a viable starting center in the playoffs. One of the panelists said something like “you just can’t do it” as it stands no chance of working.
Totally disagree with that.
(12-27-2022, 12:20 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]We have a serious talent deficit. Its very likely you cant get to a title contender in one move. If you have the opportunity to acquire legitimate young talent for bench filler role players you've got to do it.
As for the fit, offensively i think we underestimate how dynamic it would be to have two big men with interchangeable skillsets. I think its critical for us to get away from "role" players and start emphasizing multi faceted players. What makes life so difficult on Luka is not the ball dominance but rather the over abundance of one dimensional players. Other teams would have to match up with Cwood/Collins and not many would be capable.
Defense would be more of a challenge. IMO you rely on your coaching staff. Were watching a bit of development with Cwood as they are trying to "coach" him how to play defense in the Powell role. Collins would need to play more of the Maxi role here and I do believe he has the athleticism to do it.
Next year you have a big rotation of Cwood, Collins, Maxi. Pretty versatile and as Kamm pointed out you always have one of Cwood/Collins on the floor.
I hope you mean they need more two-way players who can make 3's at a high rate. Players who are multi-dimensional but it's all offense, or all defense, are not really the answer.
They have too many one-way players. They need to gradually move away from those.
I'm hoping Wood can add some defense and fit the need (but not sure he's there). I don't know about Collins, but no interest if he's not a proven answer on BOTH ends of the floor.