(01-09-2023, 01:16 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that. The point of the question is if THJ and LeVert are equally meh (which seems to be the consensus of both fan bases), then you aren’t going to get Cleveland to just throw in the former #5 overall for Frank. It just isn’t going to happen. Have to give to get. So, if Okoro is desired you have to look at what the asking price is likely to be. I think it is Hardy at the very least.
Ya I agree, wishful thinking for sure. It's nice to dream though.
And boy that reddit thread has a lot of animosity towards the entire idea as well.
My only issue with Levert is his health.
Trading THJ for him in an almost 1-1 swap is a highway robbery for the Mavs. Levert is barely 2 years removed from being one of the main pieces in the Harden trade that netted the Rockets Oladipo.
He'd be a great fit here.
I'm curious whether the Cavs would be interested in something slightly larger that reduces their payroll and cashes in on their expiring assets.
THJ+Oubre Jr.+ PJ Washington to Cavs
Love+LeVert to the Mavs
Bertans+McGee+Picks to the Hornets.
Cavs get their shooter and LeVert replacement(s) in THJ and Oubre. PJ replaces Love. Both are expiring so if it doesn't work they aren't stuck.
Mavs get their THJ replacement AND big man replacement who can stretch the floor.
Hornets kind of get the shit end of the stick here eating 2 bad contracts, and the only realistic way I see this deal getting done is somehow finding a way to get Hayward thrusted on someone. So a revised version is:
THJ to the Cavs
LeVert+Hayward to the Mavs
Bertans+McGee to the Hornets
Mavs new rotation
Luka/Dinwiddie
LeVert/Bullock
Green/Hayward
DFS/Maxi
Wood/Powell
The Mavs lux tax payment balloons to nearly 64 mill with this deal (almost 33 mil extra than what we're currently paying), which alone makes me skeptical Cuban signs off. But the team basically turns it's bad-middling players into 2 rotation guys with health issues. It also frees up a lot of luxury tax room in the future given that Hayward is off the books only a year after this one and LeVert is an expiring.
Maybe Cuban eats a bad tax this year, and then goes cheapskate?
I do think that team on paper solves a lot of issues and fixes the ball handling/creation quite easily. Our new bench mob is lead by Dinwiddie and Hayward, which should be more than enough (*as long as he is healthy).
(01-09-2023, 01:16 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that. The point of the question is if THJ and LeVert are equally meh (which seems to be the consensus of both fan bases), then you aren’t going to get Cleveland to just throw in the former #5 overall for Frank. It just isn’t going to happen. Have to give to get. So, if Okoro is desired you have to look at what the asking price is likely to be. I think it is Hardy at the very least.
Totally agree with your logic, and honestly from Cleveland's perspective it would probably take more than Hardy.
But, mark me down as a member of the official "don't trade Hardy" camp. I don't want to trade Green, either, but I think in two years Hardy will be the more valuable player.
(01-09-2023, 01:24 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]My only issue with Levert is his health.
That's a big issue. One season over 70 games. Every other season below 60. He is also expiring so you have to take that factor and figure out what to pay him.
I like LeVert a lot and getting players who can do something off the bounce is much needed, but his health concerns are frightening.
Fun fact: He's shooting the three ball a little better than Tim this season, granted on 2.5 less attempts. The second time he's shot 36% from three but he's mostly a 33% guy.
(01-09-2023, 01:24 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe Cuban eats a bad tax this year, and then goes cheapskate?
Not against a THJ trade scenario but I think that is the driving force behind roster decisions right now. Reducing the payroll. And that´s also my concern.
THJ has negative trade value. Is overpaid and as streaky as it gets when it comes to his on court production. But just moving him for the sake of salary relief isn´t going to improve the roster. THJ for air would make the Mavs worse in the longrun. And it´s not like it opens a realistic window for capspace anytime soon.
If they trade him for an expiring and don´t extend/resign the Mavs simply lost a rotation player without any longterm replacement. We could hope that it would open up some money under the tax line to bring back Wood but that´s not a given.
In a THJ for air scenario and since Bertans is untradeable, I do have this morbid curiosity if you could give Davis enough minutes and shots to approximate Tim's offensive value. The problem is that it benefits the Mavs in keeping Bertans games played under 75% next year.
THJ 1-1 trade for LeVert makes too much sense. The fact that it's originating from Cleveland makes me think it's going to happen.
(01-09-2023, 01:45 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]THJ 1-1 trade for LeVert makes too much sense. The fact that it's originating from Cleveland makes me think it's going to happen.
I wouldn't do it.
LaVert isn't a better player, we only think he is.
I wouldn't want them to re-sign him, so that money is likely just going to come off the books. That's positive, in some ways, but if they're going to make trades for financial sake I'd much rather dump Bullock, McGee or Bertans.
I would happily trade THJ for or as part of a package for a player I wanted to keep, moving forward.
(01-09-2023, 01:53 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/HoopsRumors/status/1...0202778627
Here's a player I might trade THJ for, though I doubt it makes too much sense from the teams' perspectives. Unless Trent just wants out of there, I suppose.
(01-09-2023, 01:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't do it.
LaVert isn't a better player, we only think he is.
I wouldn't want them to re-sign him, so that money is likely just going to come off the books. That's positive, in some ways, but if they're going to make trades for financial sake I'd much rather dump Bullock, McGee or Bertans.
I would happily trade THJ for or as part of a package for a player I wanted to keep, moving forward.
You could theoretically re-route Levert and his 18 million expiring for something you do want long term. This is a scenario where in theory Cleveland wants THJ for his skillset and has limited matching options for a trade. Levert and his expiring contract is a much better trade piece to be working with league wide.
(01-09-2023, 02:01 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]You could theoretically re-route Levert and his 18 million expiring for something you do want long term. This is a scenario where in theory Cleveland wants THJ for his skillset and has limited matching options for a trade. Levert and his expiring contract is a much better trade piece to be working with league wide.
Sure, and I'm all for that.
Judging by the rumors (if we even can, you never know) it seems to me like THJ is the more valuable player, however. So, I might not want to get fixated on this LaVert angle if I'm the Mavs, even to re-route him.
(01-09-2023, 02:01 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]Levert and his expiring contract is a much better trade piece to be working with league wide.
Although this might be the case, sure, because
some expiring money (can't really trade Powell) could be very helpful.
Unfortunately, the reason I believe this will get considered is that I think Cuban is the one who wants to lighten his financial burden. I think if this trade happens, LaVert will simply come off the books and sign somewhere else.
(01-09-2023, 01:16 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that. The point of the question is if THJ and LeVert are equally meh (which seems to be the consensus of both fan bases), then you aren’t going to get Cleveland to just throw in the former #5 overall for Frank. It just isn’t going to happen. Have to give to get. So, if Okoro is desired you have to look at what the asking price is likely to be. I think it is Hardy at the very least.
I agree. I would not give up Hardy though. I have him #2 behind Luka in my most important guys moving forward (Green #3 and Wood #4). I may be way off and Hardy may be gone in two years but having him and Green hit to a certain degree is really important to this franchise.
Would the Cavs have any interest in Bullock? What about a deal centered around Bullock and Okoro? Or Bullock and Rubio? Probably not, but wouldn't a good shooting Bullock be a fit on that team?
(01-09-2023, 01:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I wouldn't do it.
LaVert isn't a better player, we only think he is.
Right here with you. The one thing I like about him, he is 2 years younger.
But otherwise I don't think THJ is the problem with this team right now. There is someone else in the starting lineup that should be the focus of trade explorations.
I kind of feel the idea of getting Lavert isn't a talent to talent comparison and is simply a matter of getting off of Hardaway's contract so that it is easier to retain Wood. I would fully expect Lavert to be a rental and then go somewhere else this offseason with that being the intention of the entire move, maybe I'm missing something here though.
(01-09-2023, 02:01 PM)Okstate819 Wrote: [ -> ]You could theoretically re-route Levert and his 18 million expiring for something you do want long term. This is a scenario where in theory Cleveland wants THJ for his skillset and has limited matching options for a trade. Levert and his expiring contract is a much better trade piece to be working with league wide.
I’ve been trying to figure out the public nature of this and how strongly Fedor has worded things. Makes me think this is an advertisement to other teams who might want to give something for LeVert.
If we think of this from the POV of LeVert’s agency (CAA), their job is to get players to places where they can get paid. They can’t pull the trigger, but they can exert influence. Cleveland probably won’t retain LeVert, so move him somewhere that will. They have influence there because of Mitchell’s presence. CAA has similar issues with Kuzma, Myles Turner, Russell and Poeltl. They also represent Josh Green who is extension eligible this summer. Best way to get Josh a bigger number is to get him a clean path to a bigger role (THJ out of the way).
Point being, CAA has several guys who are extension trapped and in places that aren’t advantageous to them getting big money this summer. Seems there might be room for adding some teams to this.
(01-09-2023, 02:21 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I kind of feel the idea of getting Lavert isn't a talent to talent comparison and is simply a matter of getting off of Hardaway's contract so that it is easier to retain Wood. I would fully expect Lavert to be a rental and then go somewhere else this offseason with that being the intention of the entire move, maybe I'm missing something here though.
I get the financial angle, I think, and like I said a couple of days ago, if that's what they MUST do to hold onto players like Wood (and Powell, I hope) then so be it. As a fan, I'd prefer the "dumps" to be guys who aren't useful rotation pieces like McGee and Bertans, and both Bullock and Dinwiddie would be preferable ship outs from among the rotation players, but it's not a perfect world that revolves around Mavs fans and I get that.
However,
if the trade is financially motivated, I wouldn't expect them to sign and trade LaVert this summer (though I'm sure it will be spun that way in the media). That would be the same as keeping Hardaway, financially. The chances of doing this trade as a stepping stone to get to some player who's good enough to justify staying in the tax from Cuban's perspective seems unlikely to me. In other words, if they want to trade Hardaway simply as a means of "getting off" of his money, LaVert, as a free agent, isn't suddenly going to net you a better player than Hardaway would right now. In fact, I bet they're straight up
looking deals for expiring players for the express purpose of them expiring and helping the roster
not force them to pay tax next year.
This trade plays out as turning Hardaway into a rental for a season, imo, and I think this season's team and the next couple will be poorer as a result.
(01-09-2023, 02:21 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I kind of feel the idea of getting Lavert isn't a talent to talent comparison and is simply a matter of getting off of Hardaway's contract so that it is easier to retain Wood. I would fully expect Lavert to be a rental and then go somewhere else this offseason with that being the intention of the entire move, maybe I'm missing something here though.
There is a camp here that believes this is a salary clearing move and that's a bummer for a few reasons. First confirming that Cuban is a cheapskate. Second is the long running issue of acquiring talent only to not use them or jettison them for greener pastures at the first opportunity (DAJ, KP, Curry, Richardson, Wright, McGee, etc.) with real possibilities of Wood and THJ. I get basketball is a business but business is a two-way street. It's probably a huge factor for why JB wanted out. Mavs loyalty would remain with Doncic, rightfully so, but no one else and he'd get flipped at the first opportunity.
I really don't like THJ the player or his contract, but he's a standup dude that wants to be here and that is something that shouldn't be taken for granted. If you are trading him just to trade him, that's a bummer.
CLE in: Hardaway, Ntilikina.
DAL in: Levert, Rose, Reddish.
NYK in: Bullock, Windler.
Who needs incentive? IMO it's CLE but it's very minor (2nds).