(12-15-2022, 10:36 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Whoever in the Mavs Front office who is calling teams to talk trades.....man, that must be a depressing job.
Hey, so and so, any interest in Javele? crickets. How about a Latvian Laser? Crickets?
A thankless job actually. Whoever it is (should be Nico) ears should be ringing after all the hangups.
(12-15-2022, 11:04 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Luka is a very immature child out there still (and it’s becoming a huge problem honestly, you think free agents want to play with the guy who dribbles the ball for 20 seconds, doesn’t get back on defense and blames his teammates after?). This is his body language when his team is middle of the pack, you think he’s going to be cool with someone saying we need to totally bottom out right now? It’s just not in his DNA. If Luka gets a high ankle sprain or has to sit out a ton of games then sure, let’s sell off everything and start Hardy and Green the rest of the season but until this happens, the only path forward is trying to make some moves around the edges of this roster and make a big splashy move this offseason to find a costar that works. For better or worse.
That only path forward you outline, and zero offense to you, is merely spinning our tires in the mud. Again, I think Luka can easily see the shortcomings of this roster, especially when we match up with the elite teams like the Celtics of Cavs. He might not like it, but I think at this point he can understand it. At some point you need to rip the bandage off as the status quo of how the MBT have tried to build around him are surely going to lead to him asking out of this situation.
The easy solution to bottoming out is trading Dinwiddie.
(12-15-2022, 12:13 PM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]A thankless job actually. Whoever it is (should be Nico) ears should be ringing after all the hangups.
I think I heard Brian Demaris say in the past when he worked with the Mavs he was given responsibility for certain teams to check in on consistently. Others had different teams. No doubt that other teams give that responsibility to the Assistant to the Assistant GM to take Mavs calls
(12-15-2022, 12:18 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]That only path forward you outline, and zero offense to you, is merely spinning our tires in the mud. Again, I think Luka can easily see the shortcomings of this roster, especially when we match up with the elite teams like the Celtics of Cavs. He might not like it, but I think at this point he can understand it. At some point you need to rip the bandage off as the status quo of how the MBT have tried to build around him are surely going to lead to him asking out of this situation.
The easy solution to bottoming out is trading Dinwiddie.
I don't see it happening, but I do wonder what the market is for Dinwiddie.
(12-15-2022, 12:18 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]That only path forward you outline, and zero offense to you, is merely spinning our tires in the mud. Again, I think Luka can easily see the shortcomings of this roster, especially when we match up with the elite teams like the Celtics of Cavs. He might not like it, but I think at this point he can understand it. At some point you need to rip the bandage off as the status quo of how the MBT have tried to build around him are surely going to lead to him asking out of this situation.
The easy solution to bottoming out is trading Dinwiddie.
No offense taken, I see the shitty spot we're in and understand why there's a temptation to tank (literally every fan base has this conversation after two straight losses). I agree it would most likely be spinning tires this season (hopefully in the form of setting ourselves up with better assets for the future) but you have the assets to make a much larger trade this offseason which would hopefully move the needle.
I think the one thing that the tanking crowd seems to do a lot of handwaving at is this idea that "Luka will understand" when there is absolutely zero evidence of that. Seeing the shortcomings of this roster and being willing to throw away a season of your professional career while you are one of the best players in the world are two veryyyyy different things. This is a kid who has been a winner at every level since the age of 16, I have no idea why people think it will be cool with him to just lay back and watch ping pong balls roll in.
(12-15-2022, 09:27 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure how you can look at Lukas body language right now and think that losing more is what’s going to keep him around longer. You always talk about tanking as if these guys aren’t competitors. You think Luka was barking “let’s get Victor or Scoot” to Cuban when we walked by all pissed last night?
...and you think trading for Bojan Bogdanovic or Myles Turner (at the expense of our very last assets) and losing to the Warriors/Clippers in the first round of the play-in is going to make Luka look at this roster and go: BOOM. This is a winner. Happy summer time.
Luka might be pissed for three months, but the moment Wembanyama/Scoot/Thompson twin walks though that door he has this thing called HOPE. Where is the hope heading into the 2023/2024 season with the same horrible cap structure and the same horrible aging team? Oh right the big trade. Well nothing stops you from still doing that winning trade after tanking.
Players evaluate FO performances, future projections, not current wins or losses.
I told you a million times why nobody wants to sign in Dallas in free agency. They think Cuban is dumb and now cheap, too. On top of probably not being one of the more popular owners, due to his "changing the streets when I see black people at night"- comments.
Basically he´s the new Sterling. Does Ballmer have problems signing players to play for the Clippers now? NO. You know who has problems signing players? The guy who thinks you should give 34 year old McGee a three year contract.
(12-15-2022, 12:54 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]...and you think trading for Bojan Bogdanovic or Myles Turner (at the expense of our very last assets) and losing to the Warriors/Clippers in the first round of the play-in is going to make Luka look at this roster and go: BOOM. This is a winner. Happy summer time.
Luka might be pissed for three months, but the moment Wembanyama/Scoot/Thompson twin walks though that door he has this thing called HOPE. Where is the hope heading into the 2023/2024 season with the same horrible cap structure and the same horrible aging team? Oh right the big trade. Well nothing stops you from still doing that winning trade after tanking.
Players evaluate FO performances, future projections, not current wins or losses.
I told you a million times why nobody wants to sign in Dallas in free agency. They think Cuban is dumb and now cheap, too. On top of probably not being one of the more popular owners, due to his "changing the streets when I see black people at night"- comments.
Basically he´s the new Sterling. Does Ballmer have problems signing players to play for the Clippers now? NO. You know who has problems signing players? The guy who thinks you should give 34 year old McGee a three year contract.
I didn't say anything remotely close to the first sentence as those would cost us future assets which we just can't give up right now.
If you think that Luka's attitude towards this franchise would be better if we lost 47 games instead of won 47 games then we simply disagree and honestly it's just an hard truth that you refuse to accept as you treat all these players as pieces instead of as humans.
Also, there's 3 years left on Luka's deal after this season. You act as if every top 10 pick is an immediate contributor when there is MOUNTAINS of evidence that all these kids take time. Hell, you're talking about the Thompson twins as if they're a sure fire hit when they still haven't played any real competition in their entire lives. I do agree with you that if we land a pick that it can (and most likely will be) traded if it's anywhere from 3-8 but I truly believe that you are really underestimating how much what you're purposing would hurt the culture of a team that already seems to have a culture problem.
(12-15-2022, 12:47 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I think the one thing that the tanking crowd seems to do a lot of handwaving at is this idea that "Luka will understand" when there is absolutely zero evidence of that. Seeing the shortcomings of this roster and being willing to throw away a season of your professional career while you are one of the best players in the world are two veryyyyy different things. This is a kid who has been a winner at every level since the age of 16, I have no idea why people think it will be cool with him to just lay back and watch ping pong balls roll in.
I don't know if Luka will understand. I think the reality of the situation is setting in. My perspective is that if we keep operating like we have since acquiring him, we need to be prepared for his eventual trade demands. I'm not saying that is happening soon, but it will come. I just don't think you can turn this chicken shit roster into chicken salad. I'd at least have the conversation with him and if he green lights "the process", start selling off assets.
I absolutely do not think Mark Cuban will tank.
Tanking is NEVER doable at the player level. Players play to win (and they should do that). So it's on the management to create a lineup that cannot win, by trades or by sitting good players with mysterious injuries. While I think Luka can play well (aka amass big stats) if he has NO talent around him, I don't think he can win that often.
(12-15-2022, 01:10 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Tanking is NEVER doable at the player level. Players play to win (and they should do that). So it's on the management to create a lineup that cannot win, by trades or by sitting good players with mysterious injuries. While I think Luka can play well (aka amass big stats) if he has NO talent around him, I don't think he can win that often.
Trade Dinwiddie. Play McGee.
(12-15-2022, 01:07 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know if Luka will understand. I think the reality of the situation is setting in. My perspective is that if we keep operating like we have since acquiring him, we need to be prepared for his eventual trade demands. I'm not saying that is happening soon, but it will come. I just don't think you can turn this chicken shit roster into chicken salad. I'd at least have the conversation with him and if he green lights "the process", start selling off assets.
I absolutely do not think Mark Cuban will tank.
Ya, I do hope that the FO is at the point where conversations are being had with Luka about the direction of the team. To your point, I don't think those conversations are around tanking but I hope they're explaining to him that his costar can't be here just yet with the current state of the roster (and also take some accountability for that fact while they're at it) and that this is what we have to work with unfortunately for this season. If the last two weeks of Luka reactions/body language tell us anything, it's that no conversations of any sort are happening with Luka and they think this team is still a legit contender which is kind of concerning at the moment.
(12-15-2022, 01:10 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Tanking is NEVER doable at the player level. Players play to win (and they should do that). So it's on the management to create a lineup that cannot win, by trades or by sitting good players with mysterious injuries. While I think Luka can play well (aka amass big stats) if he has NO talent around him, I don't think he can win that often.
I agree with this but the only thing that I'd add is that he will win enough to keep us in the top 2/3rds of the league which is all that it takes for that pick to convey. Even with the Maxi injury it would take a Luka injury to make tanking a viable option.
What would a rest-of-season look like with Luka given a green light to amass more stats, play less defense, with a mandate to push the pace so that there are bigger stat numbers for everyone? Make sure the pace is sizzling. Do his numbers go through the roof? If you prioritize lots of minutes to kids and players who need more numbers to enhance their trade value, do more possessions hasten development, just by repetition, and do bigger stats create bigger trade values?
(12-15-2022, 01:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]What would a rest-of-season look like with Luka given a green light to amass more stats, play less defense, with a mandate to push the pace so that there are bigger stat numbers for everyone? Make sure the pace is sizzling. Do his numbers go through the roof? If you prioritize lots of minutes to kids and players who need more numbers to enhance their trade value, do more possessions hasten development, just by repetition, and do bigger stats create bigger trade values?
I think this roster is built more for offense anyway so I actually think this would improve our record. Just try to score 120 points a night.
(12-15-2022, 01:23 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]What would a rest-of-season look like with Luka given a green light to amass more stats, play less defense, with a mandate to push the pace so that there are bigger stat numbers for everyone? Make sure the pace is sizzling. Do his numbers go through the roof? If you prioritize lots of minutes to kids and players who need more numbers to enhance their trade value, do more possessions hasten development, just by repetition, and do bigger stats create bigger trade values?
The kids would probably be the only benefit of bigger stats from a value perspective. Wood potentially too but that really doesn't help the Mavs out. I don't think Luka's numbers change all that much. He's already doing monumental things and you'd just be adding to his fatigue factor.
(12-15-2022, 01:13 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Ya, I do hope that the FO is at the point where conversations are being had with Luka about the direction of the team. To your point, I don't think those conversations are around tanking but I hope they're explaining to him that his costar can't be here just yet with the current state of the roster (and also take some accountability for that fact while they're at it) and that this is what we have to work with unfortunately for this season. If the last two weeks of Luka reactions/body language tell us anything, it's that no conversations of any sort are happening with Luka and they think this team is still a legit contender which is kind of concerning at the moment.
I agree with this but the only thing that I'd add is that he will win enough to keep us in the top 2/3rds of the league which is all that it takes for that pick to convey. Even with the Maxi injury it would take a Luka injury to make tanking a viable option.
If losing on purpose was a problem match-fixing wouldn´t exist. We can easily tank with Luka playing 28-30 MPG and the occasional rest game, if we put Green, Hardy, Bertans and McGee out there for 30 minutes. I might also help make Luka feel injured just so he does not have to play with Bertans and McGee anymore.
The concept of tanking is not the problem. The problem is Cuban.
If Luka had an injury would you seriously bet on this team winning more than seven games the rest of the year?
29 wins guaranteed you the 7th odds last season. That is 15-39 the rest of the way. That´s certainly do-able.
Hilariously I think if you did some of these tanking trades like accepting Westbrook + Bryant for Dinwiddie + THJ + Bullock or Wood + McGee for Crowder + Saric, I´m not even sure the team gets worse. That´s something nobody even considers. It´s not illegal to make "tanking" trades and still get good players. More often than not, those are not players that are actually bad, but rather severely overpaid or coming back from injuries.
I´d be more concerned with our tanking strategy with skilled veterans like Westbrook + Crowder + Saric playing for a new contract than THJ, McGee and Bertans enjoying their retirement contracts.
Let me start off by saying I think the Mavs are way better than what they show currently...but they still have major talent issues.
That being said...Im pivoting to Draft whether Luka likes it or not. If Luka leaves and you are left with a bunch of border line bench material, old plug and play vets that no other team wants...while also not having any draft picks for the next 4 years...the team is doomed.
I would rather just create an influx of young talent now and hope that 2 or 3 of the 5 picks is better than sending 3 picks for one guy and still having holes. Basically...I would rather be todays Cavs(youngsters galore) when Luka leaves instead of being left with no Luka and a bunch of past their prime dudes who dont have a superstar to carry them.
Also...if no one wants to come here why overpay for it...just Draft. I also believe that on some teams a mid level FRP might be considered a bust...but the Luka effect make that same player look good. I just think Luka needs some First Round talent around him...guys with speed and measurements and decent fundamentals.
What does everyone think of Bullock for Cam Thomas package? Salaries would have to find ways to match.
Or how about Bullock for Seth Curry and a first? I believe they have the Sixers first this year.
I think Bullock would have solid interest with teams. I just don't know if the Mavs will give up on their plan that was so successful last year.
(12-15-2022, 01:34 PM)dynamicalVoid Wrote: [ -> ]Let me start off by saying I think the Mavs are way better than what they show currently...but they still have major talent issues.
That being said...Im pivoting to Draft whether Luka likes it or not. If Luka leaves and you are left with a bunch of border line bench material, old plug and play vets that no other team wants...while also not having any draft picks for the next 4 years...the team is doomed.
I would rather just create an influx of young talent now and hope that 2 or 3 of the 5 picks is better than sending 3 picks for one guy and still having holes. Basically...I would rather be todays Cavs(youngsters galore) when Luka leaves instead of being left with no Luka and a bunch of past their prime dudes who dont have a superstar to carry them.
Also...if no one wants to come here why overpay for it...just Draft. I also believe that on some teams a mid level FRP might be considered a bust...but the Luka effect make that same player look good. I just think Luka needs some First Round talent around him...guys with speed and measurements and decent fundamentals.
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that "the professional" is way to petulant and stubborn to trade Luka. If anything Luka walks in 2026. What is a three months tank and a re-structuring toward youth, assets and 2024 capspace, when your window is summer 2026. Other owners might consider the trade deadline 2024/2025 the real expiring time of Luka, but not Cuban. He´ll burn this thing into the ground.
(12-15-2022, 01:42 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I think the one thing we can all agree on is that "the professional" is way to petulant and stubborn to trade Luka. If anything Luka walks in 2026. What is a three months tank and a re-structuring toward youth, assets and 2024 capspace, when your window is summer 2026. Other owners might consider the trade deadline 2024/2025 the real expiring time of Luka, but not Cuban. He´ll burn this thing into the ground.
The plug and play vet market is too expensive. Every team is using it...just causing prices for Playoff playable, plug and play vets to skyrocket.
The strategy makes sense...but not in this market for Dallas. Too risky, imo. Just draft unless you get a good value deal that you are willing to spend assets on. But...protect those assets...dont just be loose with them.
(12-15-2022, 01:10 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]While I think Luka can play well (aka amass big stats) if he has NO talent around him, I don't think he can win that often.
This team without Luka is arguably the worst team in the league. Certainly with lowest upside. And Luka has them at 50 % record. He is far from just a guy puting up big stats.
(12-15-2022, 12:47 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]No offense taken, I see the shitty spot we're in and understand why there's a temptation to tank (literally every fan base has this conversation after two straight losses). I agree it would most likely be spinning tires this season (hopefully in the form of setting ourselves up with better assets for the future) but you have the assets to make a much larger trade this offseason which would hopefully move the needle.
I think the one thing that the tanking crowd seems to do a lot of handwaving at is this idea that "Luka will understand" when there is absolutely zero evidence of that. Seeing the shortcomings of this roster and being willing to throw away a season of your professional career while you are one of the best players in the world are two veryyyyy different things. This is a kid who has been a winner at every level since the age of 16, I have no idea why people think it will be cool with him to just lay back and watch ping pong balls roll in.
I love Luka and he's a phenomenal player, generational talent, and he says all the right things. That being said he's also part of the problem. He doesn't appear to be a strong leader. If leading by example is his thing, that's a huge fail as he whines non stop and doesn't get back on defense on every play. His shot selection isn't great and he's become incredibly predictable at the end of the game. He's always going to take that step back 3 on the left side at the end of games. I'm not giving Luka a pass on this failed season. If his punishment for not leading this team properly is a season of tanking, so be it.