(08-07-2021, 01:07 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Probably true, but at some point, it won't matter. It will be too late.
That "who did we want, Olynyk or Dragic" train wreck last off-season was probably the time to add this player, if we're honest with ourselves.
Why would it be too late? I can imagine a scenario where he is barely bought out in time for the playoffs that puts us in a limited position to use him.
But I guess it also is about expectations. I don’t view Dragic as a solution to all our problems. Just added depth in a role where he’s really needed.
As for the past. It’s water under the collapsed bridge.
(08-07-2021, 02:18 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]Why would it be too late? I can imagine a scenario where he is barely bought out in time for the playoffs that puts us in a limited position to use him.
But I guess it also is about expectations. I don’t view Dragic as a solution to all our problems. Just added depth in a role where he’s really needed.
As for the past. It’s water under the collapsed bridge.
Fair question, and I wasn't very clear.
I just feel that like 60% of the
value associated with acquiring Dragic during this off-season (or in the past) is his experience and understanding, with the goal being for the team to learn from him, both conceptually and through
mutual experience.
Don't get me wrong, I
do think he brings plenty of tangible on-court improvement to the table, but I don't think the full brunt of that can be achieved between the TDL and the playoffs. Teams need training camp and early season to achieve the synergy needed to play well together, imo.
Because of Dragic's age, I'd say two things are true: it's not a forgone conclusion that it will make sense to keep him long after this season (in your hypothetical when he gets bought out at the TDL) and every day that passes before acquiring him slightly diminishes the benefit of doing so. That's why I brought up the failed trade of last summer - not to retread anti-MBT talking points, but because I view it as a missed opportunity specifically regarding Dragic.
In short, I think he's a player who offers a tremendous value, even if it's only for one season, if brought in at the beginning of that season, but not a player who I'd expect to move the needle much by suddenly appearing in time for the sprint to the end after the TDL. Nor do I see him as of an age where you just keep trying to get him until it's possible, for the future. Just my opinion.
(08-07-2021, 12:55 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]Good news for Mavs, in both scenarios where Dragic is used as an expiring, it is PROBABLE that he would get bought out from the receiving team! In which case he could still be a Mav by the end of this season.
I'm not sure this is true.
Only "star" on the move is Ben S. and Philly might really intent to keep Goran and same with GSW as a salary dump for Wiggins.
Can you believe GSW is paying 120Mio just to keep Wiggins on the roster.
(08-07-2021, 02:27 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Fair question, and I wasn't very clear.
I just feel that like 60% of the value associated with acquiring Dragic during this off-season (or in the past) is his experience and understanding, with the goal being for the team to learn from him, both conceptually and through mutual experience.
Don't get me wrong, I do think he brings plenty of tangible on-court improvement to the table, but I don't think the full brunt of that can be achieved between the TDL and the playoffs. Teams need training camp and early season to achieve the synergy needed to play well together, imo.
Because of Dragic's age, I'd say two things are true: it's not a forgone conclusion that it will make sense to keep him long after this season (in your hypothetical when he gets bought out at the TDL) and every day that passes before acquiring him slightly diminishes the benefit of doing so. That's why I brought up the failed trade of last summer - not to retread anti-MBT talking points, but because I view it as a missed opportunity specifically regarding Dragic.
In short, I think he's a player who offers a tremendous value, even if it's only for one season, if brought in at the beginning of that season, but not a player who I'd expect to move the needle much by suddenly appearing in time for the sprint to the end after the TDL. Nor do I see him as of an age where you just keep trying to get him until it's possible, for the future. Just my opinion.
Thanks for the clarification. I can see your point. And I agree that the value prop changes drastically if you acquire a player before camp/season.
I will just have to ask you what your eye test says bc I don’t have one. ?
I know of the skill level of Dragic and I know he has had a significant role on the Heat the last few seasons. So I can hardly believe he close to done.
If the goal is to get production from him in the veteran leadership role, with Barea/Harris type production of the past, do you see that as a possibility going into the season after this, when he will be 36?
(08-07-2021, 03:42 PM)DallasBasketball Wrote: [ -> ]If the goal is to get production from him in the veteran leadership role and with a Barea/Harris production of the past, do you see that as a possibility going into the season after this, when he will be 36?
Yeah, so I'm with you. I think he's a vastly underrated player.
But, because of Miami's setback of a season this year, coupled with his removal from their starting lineup, there is a perception that he's in decline. There are probably some numbers that show that, too. But, what I believe is that they moved him out of Tyler Herro's way - no more, no less. I'd say it's reasonable to wonder if this decision (followed by Herro not immediately taking the next expected step) was part of the cause of Miami's fairly disappointing season, myself. Others look and see that he was almost not brought back, then demoted, and all this on a team that was already not as good as we thought, so he must not be a desirable player. Maybe the truth is in between.
All I know is that he was a difference maker in the bubble (though not in the finals after that foot injury). That doesn't seem like that long ago to me, but to be fair it wasn't just last season and his IS at an age where decline is going to happen.
So, yes, I can see him being valuable at 36, but I'm not comfortable with
predicting it. I wanted him last summer in the deal that didn't happen (right after that bubble playoffs) and I still want him now. I have no idea if we'll want him the season after next, so he's not the type of acquisition I'd be super pumped about at or around the TDL, probably. Hell, by then we might have a totally different opinion of the Mavs, not just Dragic, the player. Who knows.
(08-07-2021, 02:30 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure this is true.
Only "star" on the move is Ben S. and Philly might really intent to keep Goran and same with GSW as a salary dump for Wiggins.
Can you believe GSW is paying 120Mio just to keep Wiggins on the roster.
But that is the magic of optionality, one can’t know for sure what will be available.
You’re right that I’m probably overstating the odds of an eventual buyout.
(08-07-2021, 03:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, so I'm with you. I think he's a vastly underrated player.
But, because of Miami's setback of a season this year, coupled with his removal from their starting lineup, there is a perception that he's in decline. There are probably some numbers that show that, too. But, what I believe is that they moved him out of Tyler Herro's way - no more, no less. I'd say it's reasonable to wonder if this decision (followed by Herro not immediately taking the next expected step) was part of the cause of Miami's fairly disappointing season, myself. Others look and see that he was almost not brought back, then demoted, and all this on a team that was already not as good as we thought, so he must not be a desirable player. Maybe the truth is in between.
All I know is that he was a difference maker in the bubble (though not in the finals after that foot injury). That doesn't seem like that long ago to me, but to be fair it wasn't just last season and his IS at an age where decline is going to happen.
So, yes, I can see him being valuable at 36, but I'm not comfortable with predicting it. I wanted him last summer in the deal that didn't happen (right after that bubble playoffs) and I still want him now. I have no idea if we'll want him the season after next, so he's not the type of acquisition I'd be super pumped about at or around the TDL, probably. Hell, by then we might have a totally different opinion of the Mavs, not just Dragic, the player. Who knows.
A lot can happen in a season, for good or bad.
So I’m with you. It’s time to really temper our hopes and expectations. I’m not giving up on hope, but I think it’s time to shelve it til later.
Did you guys see where DSJ told db.com that he wanted to return to the Mavericks?
It's probably they called and asked and he was like "sure", but if he panneed out, that would be great. It's hard to believe he would, but I'm a sucker for the feel good comeback stories like that.
Hey, possibly a player that wants to be here and and we might get him? Step in the right direction!! Luka is drawing them in!!!
Why has Reggie Bullock signed when....
...THJ, Boban, and Sterling Brown have not?
Why? What could be the reasons?
(08-07-2021, 10:40 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I tried to point this out a couple of days ago. Dragic at $19mm can play and can be a big expiring deal at the TDL. The other option is to pay $19mm and have neither of those things. Even the play where Dragic takes a $9.5mm discount and signs here for the MLE means Toronto is spending $10mm for nothing. Why not pay the $10mm spread for something. They knew the position they were in when they agreed to the deal. I don’t think they made a mistake. But no one knows if the $19mm expiring deal will be useful until he can no longer be used as a trade chip or S&T chip (next summer).
Well if Toronto did the Powell trade, they´d still be spending $10M for nothing. Sorry it had to be done.
The Raptors don´t buy him out, cause they believe Cuban will cave in. Cuban has shown himself to be a complete beta in the market that´s regularly played for a fool by inconsequential players like DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews and Danny Green. The Mavs have also backed themselves into a corner by missing out on all the available playmakers.
Is there a FA out there that is anywhere near the level of Dragic? Schroeder and that´s it. Hart/Diallo are the next most interesting players, but they are not PGs and they are RFAs, too.
The next available PGs are barely better than Hinton, Terry or Burke. So ultimately the Mavs will need a trade or use Burke, Terry and Hinton as their secondary playmakers. DSJ might be the best available PG out there from the North American market, considering his familiarity with at least a few players on the roster. The overall best option is seriously Shane Larkin, who has become a legit superstar in European basketball.
Knowing all this, of course Ujiri will just sit on this for at least 2-3 months. He is no rush for the moment. Toronto even holds the RFA rights to Nando DeColo.
I´d do the same.
(08-07-2021, 10:42 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Well if Toronto did the Powell trade, they´d still be spending $10M for nothing. Sorry it had to be done.
The Raptors don´t buy him out, cause they believe Cuban will cave in. Cuban has shown himself to be a complete beta in the market that´s regularly played for a fool by inconsequential players like DeAndre Jordan, Wesley Matthews and Danny Green. The Mavs have also backed themselves into a corner by missing out on all the available playmakers.
Is there a FA out there that is anywhere near the level of Dragic? Schroeder and that´s it. Hart/Diallo are the next most interesting players, but they are not PGs and they are RFAs, too.
The next available PGs are barely better than Hinton, Terry or Burke. So ultimately the Mavs will need a trade or use Burke, Terry and Hinton as their secondary playmakers. DSJ might be the best available PG out there from the North American market, considering his familiarity with at least a few players on the roster. The overall best option is seriously Shane Larkin, who has become a legit superstar in European basketball.
Knowing all this, of course Ujiri will just sit on this for at least 2-3 months. He is no rush for the moment. Toronto even holds the RFA rights to Nando DeColo.
I´d do the same.
He will, but that has nothing to do with Cuban. It's a pity for Dragic, altough he will get a boatload of money for getting a boatload of money.
And the Mavs still don't have a trade that works at all.
(08-07-2021, 10:17 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Grrr... wish we would have outbid the Suns on Payne this offseason. He had a very nice playoffs.
Maybe now, in three months they will call him Trey Burke 2.0.
Play-off Payne: 9/3/2, 43/36/89 splits
Bubble Burke: 12/2/3, 51/47/60 splits
(08-07-2021, 10:52 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Maybe now, in three months they will call him Trey Burke 2.0.
Play-off Payne: 9/3/2, 43/36/89 splits
Bubble Burke: 12/2/3, 51/47/60 splits
The artist formerly known as Bubble Burke.
Will we ever see him again?
Ob er jemals wiederkommt?
(08-07-2021, 10:17 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Grrr... wish we would have outbid the Suns on Payne this offseason. He had a very nice playoffs.
Yep, I remember you being very high on him. Dare I say you were head of the Cam Payne campaign?
(Sorry, couldn't resist)