MavsBoard

(08-05-2021, 12:18 PM)Moviemavguy Wrote: [ -> ]I mean of course anything could happen, but OKC didn't get anything for Kemba Walker who is IMO superior to Dragic in both age and production.  Why not just wait for Dragic to be bought out?  Just makes no sense to give up assets unless it's just Powell and garbage which Toronto won't likely do.

I also don’t disagree with the logic here. But, I just can’t wrap my head around Dragic and Duffy allowing him to get stuck at a place he doesn’t want to be with a team that doesn’t want him because of a pissing match over a small asset. 

I completely agree that the Mavs are doing the right thing by holding out on giving them that asset, but I just can’t see Toronto falling on that sword just to win the fight. It does them no good to have someone there who clearly doesn’t want to be there.

I have a feeling that something big is going down once the Olympics are over. There are two players in the Olympics, Lillard and Beal both rumored to be on the move. 

I would not be surprised if there is a big deal in play where the teams of those guys are involved. 

Philly hired Damian Lillard's trainer as a coaching consultant.

(08-05-2021, 12:20 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I also don’t disagree with the logic here. But, I just can’t wrap my head around Dragic and Duffy allowing him to get stuck at a place he doesn’t want to be with a team that doesn’t want him because of a pissing match over a small asset. 

I completely agree that the Mavs are doing the right thing by holding out on giving them that asset, but I just can’t see Toronto falling on that sword just to win the fight. It does them no good to have someone there who clearly doesn’t want to be there.

"Dragic and Duffy allowing him to get stuck at a place he doesn’t want to be with a team that doesn’t want him"

This may be a bit strong on how much leverage Dragic and Duffy have had in this situation. They agreed to the contract in 2020, and now it's played out like it was written (as a potential trade chip where Dragic gets traded somewhere as a big expiring contract). That didn't come with any control over what might happen after he landed elsewhere.

Now he's elsewhere, and it's at least partly on him, if he doesn't like the outcome, to negotiate (not demand) the situation to be one he likes better.

"I just can’t see Toronto falling on that sword just to win the fight. It does them no good to have someone there who clearly doesn’t want to be there."

I think your sword was the idea of "forcing him to stay" and while that's one way to see it, that they shouldn't force him to be there, we have to look at if from other angles as well. Isn't the idea of "pay me in full, and then release me" incredibly unreasonable for Dragic to adopt, if he REALLY doesn't want to be in TOR? What is he offering to give up, if he wants to be elsewhere?

For TOR, it might be about desires, but the actions of "offering to give something up" (and how much) is also relevant. We don't know if Dragic is offering anything back, nor do we know if the Mavs are willing to pay anything more than the minimum, and those have an impact on the equation.

MMG made a good point when he said that "Just makes no sense to give up assets unless it's just Powell and garbage which Toronto won't likely do." I can envision that when TOR first got Dragic, they made some calls to see if they could move him elsewhere, and the Mavs expressed some interest, but in light of the $19M contract, the Mavs reasonably wanted to be compensated to take that contract.

I see moving a Powell-Burke package as compensation of a sort. But what if the Mavs actually think those guys are plus value to keep? Then how do the Mavs get compensated for taking on GD at $19M in a way that also entices TOR? It's harder than you think.

For example, in the least impactful idea I can imagine, say Mavs offer Redick snt and ask for a 2nd rounder from TOR along with GD. In essence, Mavs are eating a ton of bad salary for just a 2nd. And for TOR, they are only reducing their outlay by $5M and it costs them a 2nd. I don't think anyone likes that deal. As a result, I think it's possible the trade angle died fairly quickly, because it was too hard for anyone to find value in a $19M GD year, or the trade equivalent.

Which brings us back to the start of this post. It might be up to Dragic to fix it somehow - take some "free money" from TOR that's less than the $19M and that he doesn't have to work for, and then find a new deal somewhere else.

(08-05-2021, 12:46 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/stepbackmavs/status/...51811?s=21

"Well guys, they are done and our roster is screwed, but we love our boys in blue." -- END ROOM

Nothing else to say...

(08-05-2021, 01:10 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]"Well guys, they are done and our roster is screwed, but we love our boys in blue." -- END ROOM

Nothing else to say...

"Nothing else to say..." and if true, we'll take 1,000 more posts to say it!

(08-05-2021, 10:27 AM)BigDirk41 Wrote: [ -> ]THJ is definitely a starter at that money. I think we just need to accept that.

Instead of accepting it, I celebrate it!! :-D

*insert dancing banana emoji*

---

(08-05-2021, 11:30 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]I'm quite confident the Mavs already have a deal worked out for Dragic. What's the delay? Toronto. They only have seven guaranteed contracts, the full MLE, a forthcoming trade exception for Lowry (and maybe also Dragic), $10.5 million in cap room and a well-regarded front office. 

Meanwhile, there are some big names on the block and trade-season is just warming up. 

Bottom line, Masai Ujiri is no idiot. He didn't trade Lowry and take on all that salary just to land Achiuwa. Toronto has lots of options and they're evaluating the field before they finalize anything. Dragic wants to land in Dallas and he very likely will ...but it's going to take some time for Toronto to get it's ducks in a row before they limit any of their options.

Always great to get your takes, V. Been enjoying them since the early 2000's LMF days, I believe. Sound about right?

I think we’ll hear tomorrow that Dragic is on his way to be a Dallas Maverick. One way or another.

(08-05-2021, 01:10 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]"Dragic and Duffy allowing him to get stuck at a place he doesn’t want to be with a team that doesn’t want him"

This may be a bit strong on how much leverage Dragic and Duffy have had in this situation. They agreed to the contract in 2020, and now it's played out like it was written (as a potential trade chip where Dragic gets traded somewhere as a big expiring contract). That didn't come with any control over what might happen after he landed elsewhere.

Now he's elsewhere, and it's at least partly on him, if he doesn't like the outcome, to negotiate (not demand) the situation to be one he likes better.

"I just can’t see Toronto falling on that sword just to win the fight. It does them no good to have someone there who clearly doesn’t want to be there."

I think your sword was the idea of "forcing him to stay" and while that's one way to see it, that they shouldn't force him to be there, we have to look at if from other angles as well. Isn't the idea of "pay me in full, and then release me" incredibly unreasonable for Dragic to adopt, if he REALLY doesn't want to be in TOR? What is he offering to give up, if he wants to be elsewhere?

For TOR, it might be about desires, but the actions of "offering to give something up" (and how much) is also relevant. We don't know if Dragic is offering anything back, nor do we know if the Mavs are willing to pay anything more than the minimum, and those have an impact on the equation.

MMG made a good point when he said that "Just makes no sense to give up assets unless it's just Powell and garbage which Toronto won't likely do." I can envision that when TOR first got Dragic, they made some calls to see if they could move him elsewhere, and the Mavs expressed some interest, but in light of the $19M contract, the Mavs reasonably wanted to be compensated to take that contract.

I see moving a Powell-Burke package as compensation of a sort. But what if the Mavs actually think those guys are plus value to keep? Then how do the Mavs get compensated for taking on GD at $19M in a way that also entices TOR? It's harder than you think.

For example, in the least impactful idea I can imagine, say Mavs offer Redick snt and ask for a 2nd rounder from TOR along with GD. In essence, Mavs are eating a ton of bad salary for just a 2nd. And for TOR, they are only reducing their outlay by $5M and it costs them a 2nd. I don't think anyone likes that deal. As a result, I think it's possible the trade angle died fairly quickly, because it was too hard for anyone to find value in a $19M GD year, or the trade equivalent.

Which brings us back to the start of this post. It might be up to Dragic to fix it somehow - take some "free money" from TOR that's less than the $19M and that he doesn't have to work for, and then find a new deal somewhere else.

Your observations about leverage are hard to dispute. But aren’t you omitting the angle that Killer was pushing? Doesn’t one phone call from Duffy saying Luka really wants this to happen put all of the Mavs’ minor assets in play? Doesn’t that same call make a single year at 19mm palatable?

(08-05-2021, 01:44 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Your observations about leverage are hard to dispute. But aren’t you omitting the angle that Killer was pushing? Doesn’t one phone call from Duffy saying Luka really wants this to happen put all of the Mavs’ minor assets in play? Doesn’t that same call make a single year at 19mm palatable?

Couple of observations/questions.

Do we have any sourced reporting to indicate that Luka especially cares whether the Mavs get Dragic? (Not saying we don't, I could have missed it.)

If Toronto doesn't want a pu-pu platter of the Mavs' minor assets, do we think they will change their minds about that because Duffy tells Ujiri that Luka really wants them to do that deal?

(08-05-2021, 01:24 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Always great to get your takes, V. Been enjoying them since the early 2000's LMF days, I believe. Sound about right?

Yup, that's about right. And likewise!

IMHO Dragic's ultimate route to Dallas could come through Toronto themselves via buyout or trade; or through an as yet unidentified team if Toronto needs his outgoing salary to facilitate another move. And if it's the former, I'm sure all of the scenarios have been discussed and details worked out. 

A buyout would obviously be the best option for Dallas, but they have pieces they can include if needed (Powell, WCS etc). It's clear the Mavs just aren't in the driver's seat since Toronto is the team with the most assets and leverage to get something big done. They may also have a disgruntled All Star in Siakam. There's no sense in them buying out Dragic now. Better for Toronto to hang on and see what's possible via trade. 

Regardless, I'll be shocked if Dragic isn't in a Mavs uniform when all is said and done.

(08-05-2021, 02:06 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]do we think they will change their minds about that because Duffy tells Ujiri that Luka really wants them to do that deal

Missed you ml!!! Hope you're doing great! 

I could be wrong, but I think Jb meant that Duffy would call Nico and then Nico would add more value to the trade.

(08-05-2021, 02:21 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]Yup, that's about right. And likewise!

IMHO Dragic's ultimate route to Dallas could come through Toronto themselves via buyout or trade; or through an as yet unidentified team if Toronto needs his outgoing salary to facilitate another move. And if it's the former, I'm sure all of the scenarios have been discussed and details worked out. 

A buyout would obviously be the best option for Dallas, but they have pieces they can include if needed (Powell, WCS etc). It's clear the Mavs just aren't in the driver's seat since Toronto is the team with the most assets and leverage to get something big done. They may also have a disgruntled All Star in Siakam. There's no sense in them buying out Dragic now. Better for Toronto to hang on and see what's possible via trade. 

Regardless, I'll be shocked if Dragic isn't in a Mavs uniform when all is said and done.

Is it too outside of the realm of what's possible to hope that the hold up is that the trade is bigger than we think it is and that it includes Siakam to Dallas?

(08-05-2021, 11:30 AM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]They only have seven guaranteed contracts

Assuming deals announced will be made and taking into account FRP, Toronto has 11 players signed.

(08-05-2021, 02:06 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Couple of observations/questions.

Do we have any sourced reporting to indicate that Luka especially cares whether the Mavs get Dragic? (Not saying we don't, I could have missed it.)

If Toronto doesn't want a pu-pu platter of the Mavs' minor assets, do we think they will change their minds about that because Duffy tells Ujiri that Luka really wants them to do that deal?

Good questions. I don’t do this full-time like I’m told you do. But I can offer two responses (if not answers).

1. This report says they were friends and roomies when teammates: https://www.hothothoops.com/2019/12/10/2...am-adebayo. 

2. Assorted Mavs pu-pu is what I thought we were discussing. Haven’t seen any mention of the Raps expecting a real asset (like a first rounder) for the chance to overpay Geriatric Goran. But even if they’re asking for more, discussing leverage without mentioning the Luka/Goran/Billy angle seems incomplete. We all know who has the most leverage, and it ain’t the new Nike guy.

(08-05-2021, 02:44 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Missed you ml!!! Hope you're doing great! 

I could be wrong, but I think Jb meant that Duffy would call Nico and then Nico would add more value to the trade.

Hey, fif, have enjoyed reading your views.

Yes, I got that. Just adding another angle or two. 

1. It seems like, if it was critically important to Luka that the Mavs acquire Dragic, that call would already have been made. My question is whether we have any reason other than our own speculation to believe that Luka has his heart set on playing with Dragic. 

2.  I'm not sure we can point a finger at Nico for not having different assets to offer than he does. Ultimately, he can't force Toronto to take a bunch of meh assets if they would prefer to do something else. 

3. I assume, at some price point, Toronto would bite. If the Mavs are not willing to offer whatever that amount is, is that an indication that it isn't that important to Dallas whether they get Dragic or not?

4. If the Mavs aren't willing to give up the farm to get Dragic, should they be? They definitely need another playmaker, and I will be disappointed if they don't get one. But does it especially have to be Dragic?

I'm not saying they shouldn't pursue Dragic, or that there may not be things going on behind the scenes that make that pursuit at a higher cost than seems to make sense on paper sensible. 

Anyway, just throwing a couple more lines of thought into the fray. 

Had a chance to watch any Olympic soccer?

(08-05-2021, 02:50 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]We all know who has the most leverage, and it ain’t the new Nike guy.

I don't understand this. The Mavs might want Dragic, but they don't actually need him. If a deal doesn't get done, they just move on. Toronto, on the other hand, actually has to pay Dragic (which they seemingly would prefer not to do). Therefore, all the leverage is on the Dallas side--unless there's an unidentified 3rd team looking to pick up Dragic, but in that case it's Dallas and the other team splitting the leverage. Toronto still has none (other than to pull out of any deal entirely and decide to live with Dragic taking up a roster and budget spot).

Now, if Luka were to tell Nico "You *must* get this done", I agree, that would change the dynamic somewhat, but there's no indication that's the case. There's every reason to believe Luka would *like* the Mavs to bring in Dragic, but there's a big difference between preference and demand.

(08-05-2021, 02:55 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Had a chance to watch any Olympic soccer?

No, my watching of anything at all that doesn't involve work and family is WAY down from years past

(08-05-2021, 02:06 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Do we have any sourced reporting to indicate that Luka especially cares whether the Mavs get Dragic?

https://www.si.com/nba/mavericks/news/go...ency-trade

Mike Fisher says "sources tell DBcom that Doncic has campaigned with management to make this Slovenian partnership happen."