I listened to the Locked On NBA and it was weird hearing how they thought the Mavs had taken a step back and would be worse and how they dealt with any reason the Mavs might be better...
Luka improving - how long can that help happening
KP healthy - can't trust that
Bullock an upgrade - no he's a wash with Richardson
THJ back - he was in a contract year last year so he won't be as good.
Rick's chemistry issues offset because Jason Kidd isn't as good a coach
No mention of Brown or the winning pace before and after COVID.
Both hosts picked the Mavs to be worse than 47.5 and even worse than last year.
(08-31-2021, 10:34 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]I listened to the Locked On NBA and it was weird hearing how they thought the Mavs had taken a step back and would be worse and how they dealt with any reason the Mavs might be better...
Luka improving - how long can that help happening
KP healthy - can't trust that
Bullock an upgrade - no he's a wash with Richardson
THJ back - he was in a contract year last year so he won't be as good.
Rick's chemistry issues offset because Jason Kidd isn't as good a coach
No mention of Brown or the winning pace before and after COVID.
Both hosts picked the Mavs to be worse than 47.5 and even worse than last year.
'
It's cool and trendy to be down on the Mavs right now.
(08-31-2021, 10:34 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]I listened to the Locked On NBA and it was weird hearing how they thought the Mavs had taken a step back and would be worse and how they dealt with any reason the Mavs might be better...
Luka improving - how long can that help happening
KP healthy - can't trust that
Bullock an upgrade - no he's a wash with Richardson
THJ back - he was in a contract year last year so he won't be as good.
Rick's chemistry issues offset because Jason Kidd isn't as good a coach
No mention of Brown or the winning pace before and after COVID.
Both hosts picked the Mavs to be worse than 47.5 and even worse than last year.
It is possible to view the glass as half-empty, half-full, or at other measures. Personally, I wouldn't say for sure the Mavs took a step back (although it's possible they did, if Kidd doesn't pan out). I don't think they got better, either, other than maybe marginally at positions where they already had decent capacity.
But, in a bigger sense, I think this is an example of why we Mavs fans tend to find it so bewildering when it is hard to recruit players here. As fans, we sometimes view ourselves as pretty close to contending, or at least progressing well on the road. I think other people around the league, viewing it more dispassionately, don't see the team as anywhere near that vicinity.
We want to believe the team got better as a result of this summer's changes, and maybe it did. But, looking at the offseason objectively, I can see how people would see it as a tossup at this point whether the team has improved a little, stayed the same, or even gotten worse.
(08-31-2021, 10:45 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]But, looking at the offseason objectively, I can see how people would see it as a tossup at this point whether the team has improved a little, stayed the same, or even gotten worse.
What's the objective argument for "got worse"?
The coaching change is the only thing I can come up with without inlcuding "what if" stuff that is true for every team. What if THJ is worse? What if KP is hurt? IMO questions like those aren't astute "analysis".
(08-31-2021, 10:52 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]What's the objective argument for "got worse"?
The coaching change is the only thing I can come up with without inlcuding "what if" stuff that is true for every team. What if THJ is worse? What if KP is hurt? IMO questions like those aren't astute "analysis".
I agree on the what-if stuff.
Imo, the changes in the coaching staff are the real issue. It's possible that the change of personalities will have a positive effect, as well as the injection of fresh ideas. OTOH, looking at the situation on paper, it's pretty hard to make the case that Kidd is a better coach, or even in the same tier, as Carlisle.
I don't automatically take a pessimistic attitude on this. But I see how people could view it as not necessarily moving the needle in the right direction.
Do you have a different view?
(08-31-2021, 10:45 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]As fans, we sometimes view ourselves as pretty close to contending, or at least progressing well on the road. I think other people around the league, viewing it more dispassionately, don't see the team as anywhere near that vicinity.
When NBA.com dispassionately has the Mavs 4th in the West?
The bias here cuts the exact opposite way IMO. Many Mavs fans clearly have an axe to grind with Cuban and their passion is leading them toward pessimism.
Dispassionate observation on the other hand would see that the Mavs are not in the elite tier of the NBA yet, but they are knocking on that door and could easily slip into that tier this season if development and chemistry go well.
(08-31-2021, 11:00 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Dispassionate observation on the other hand would see that the Mavs are not in the elite tier of the NBA yet, but they are knocking on that door and could easily slip into that tier this season if development and chemistry go well.
I would say that is a rosy-ish take, but within the realm of possibility. I like it that we have sunny-side views here!
The cold on-paper look, however, imo, is that they are a mid- to low-tier playoff team, and that they could move up into a higher tier, or perhaps equally as well could fall into the lower end of that tier.
I think of "knocking on the door" as being maybe one realistically available piece away, but I suppose the phrase is subject to a range of interpretation.
(08-31-2021, 11:00 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I agree on the what-if stuff.
Imo, the changes in the coaching staff are the real issue. It's possible that the change of personalities will have a positive effect, as well as the injection of fresh ideas. OTOH, looking at the situation on paper, it's pretty hard to make the case that Kidd is a better coach, or even in the same tier, as Carlisle.
I don't automatically take a pessimistic attitude on this. But I see how people could view it as not necessarily moving the needle in the right direction.
Do you have a different view?
My view is that it's impossible to view Kidd as the better coach. This is a Young Coach vs HOF Coach comparison. It's a no-brainer if the discussion is "who is the better coach?"
However, if the discussion is "who is the better coach for the Mavs going forward?", then I think the answer has to be "wait and see". There are at least some rumblings that Rick and the team (players) both needed a change. There are rumblings that Luka and Rick weren't a great fit. It's possible that Kidd was humbled by his early career coaching failures, that he learned a good bit from Vogel and that he'll be able to correct his mistakes. I'ts possble that Kidd has grown and that he now has some tools that will allow him to use his savant like powers for good, and for the benefit of Luka and the Mavs.
All of that will have to be answered by the future. Rick is obviosly the better coach, right now, and in a vacuum. My take on whether Kidd will be a good coach this season for the Mavs is "I don't know".
(08-31-2021, 11:10 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I think of "knocking on the door" as being maybe one realistically available piece away, but I suppose the phrase is subject to a range of interpretation.
So your take is that they're knocking on the door of "knocking on the door".
Gotcha down
(08-31-2021, 11:14 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]My view is that it's impossible to view Kidd as the better coach. This is a Young Coach vs HOF Coach comparison. It's a no-brainer if the discussion is "who is the better coach?"
However, if the discussion is "who is the better coach for the Mavs going forward?", then I think the answer has to be "wait and see". There are at least some rumblings that Rick and the team (players) both needed a change. There are rumblings that Luka and Rick weren't a great fit. It's possible that Kidd was humbled by his early career coaching failures, that he learned a good bit from Vogel and that he'll be able to correct his mistakes. I'ts possble that Kidd has grown and that he now has some tools that will allow him to use his savant like powers for good, and for the benefit of Luka and the Mavs.
All of that will have to be answered by the future. Rick is obviosly the better coach, right now, and in a vacuum. My take on whether Kidd will be a good coach this season for the Mavs is "I don't know".
That all makes sense to me.
It seemed to me that you had raised the possibility that there is no objective argument to be made that the Mavs could have gotten worse (other than based on speculative stuff that hasn't happened). I just replied (or at least intended to reply) that, if they have an objectively worse coach, then I can see how that argument exists.
Agree that whether Kidd is the better coach for the Mavs at this time is TBD. On paper, that would seem to be a glass-half-full point of view, which is way more fun than the alternative!
Have I understood your point?
(08-31-2021, 11:17 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]So your take is that they're knocking on the door of "knocking on the door".
Gotcha down
LOL
(08-31-2021, 11:00 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]When NBA.com dispassionately has the Mavs 4th in the West?
The bias here cuts the exact opposite way IMO. Many Mavs fans clearly have an axe to grind with Cuban and their passion is leading them toward pessimism.
Dispassionate observation on the other hand would see that the Mavs are not in the elite tier of the NBA yet, but they are knocking on that door and could easily slip into that tier this season if development and chemistry go well.
I don´t see a clear cut opinion of this board when it comes to Cuban or predictions for the coming season. Cuban wasn´t even the main topic in the last couple of days. Making it about him seems to be more about your own focus and bias. Not the opinions on this board.
Dispassionate observation is coming to different results (see ESPN, NBA.com and more, obviously not neutral but at least not written by Mavs fans). Valuing one over the other comes down to personal opinions and bias.
(08-31-2021, 11:34 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban wasn´t even the main topic in the last couple of days. Making it about him seems to be more about your own focus and bias. Not the opinions on this board.
I am basing this off of how many times he is referenced in passing in a negative way. I see that a LOT right now. Cuban occupies no headspace of mine, so the only time he comes to mind is when somebody else references him.
(08-31-2021, 11:24 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]It seemed to me that you had raised the possibility that there is no objective argument to be made that the Mavs could have gotten worse (other than based on speculative stuff that hasn't happened).
I believe that I said "coaching change" was the only objective argument I could see for getting worse. Let's check the record and see...
(08-31-2021, 10:52 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]What's the objective argument for "got worse"?
The coaching change is the only thing I can come up with without inlcuding "what if" stuff that is true for every team. What if THJ is worse? What if KP is hurt? IMO questions like those aren't astute "analysis".
Do you see other objective reasons to say that they've gotten worse?
(08-31-2021, 11:49 AM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]EXCUUUUUUUUUUUSE ME!
You are eternally excused.
Wait....I may not have the ability to do that, depending on interpretive tradition.
Will the Mavs be above the line of "same" or below?
In my opinion, the roster will be near "same". The big change is coaching. JKidd is below RC as far as in game coaching ability. JKidd, I hope, knows to bring in help. There's indications that he did. I'm thinking about Avery. Avery was "great" as far as he went. His problems began when he started to believe it. Avery needed bench help, as with Del Harris. The Mavs went South after Avery lost Del. JKidd has his Luka-whisperer, if he'll use him. Worst case scenario will be JKidd gets schooled by the more adept coaches as Avery was by Nellie during that playoff series. That, to me, is what Mavs fans should be watching for. Luka will be Luka. Can JKidd, and staff, measure up to RC, and staff?