Stewart was another one I wanted at his draft. I want him more now. Problem becomes if they move off him, they are extremely thin at the position.
I also might suggest that if JB is outgoing, THJ suddenly finds some minutes to play (with SD starting). Also, JB's salary will probably be such that it more than covers DET's outgoing.
I also might suggest a 3rd team in ORL who has a plethora of bigs that could use playing time. Mo Bamba is my target from there for DET.
Dal out - JB SnT
Dal in - Stewart/2nd
Det out - Stewart/Diallo/future 1st swap option/2nd
Det in - JB/Bamba
Orl out - Bamba
Orl in - Diallo/future 1st swap option
(03-16-2022, 12:36 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ](Marks, Lowe, McMahon) also reported Dragic and pick. I haven't seen anyone say otherwise.
MacMahon certainly did not. I still have not seen any of this sourced. The only person I heard mention the pick to Dallas was the Ringer guys on the mismatch who were quoting Fischer.
Zach Lowe and MacMahon talked about the trade at length and not once was a pick being offered ever mentioned.
I'd suggest you go and listen to the Cato/Fischer podcast and see how they frame it. Fischer himself says that Toronto was asking for more than what Dallas felt comfortable offering.
(03-16-2022, 12:37 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]MacMahon certainly did not. I still have not seen any of this sourced. The only person I heard mention the pick to Dallas was the Ringer guys on the mismatch who were quoting Fischer.
Zach Lowe and MacMahon talked about the trade at length and not once was a pick being offered ever mentioned.
I'd suggest you go and listen to the Cato/Fischer podcast and see how they frame it. Fischer himself says that Toronto was asking for more than what Dallas felt comfortable offering.
You may be right about MacMahon. He brought Trent Jr. instead of the FRP. Lowe however first discussed with Marks and he mentioned the FRP. While it is not explicitely stated the pick is from Toronto, I do think it is quite difficult to read it differently. All in all it seems like there was some interest from both teams but didn't really come close to what each expected.
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1. Unless Mavs win it this year, losing Brunson in the summer is a management malpractice, imho. Either they totally misjudged the ability of the team how competitive they are, or they totally misjudged his willingness to stay or they totally misjudged long term cap situation. I think the only good solution for Mavs regarding Brunson is to resign him. We can revisit his trades at TDL next year, when he will be eligible to be traded.
2. Brunson is a FA. Mavs are not in any position to shop him around. He will chose where he wants to go and perhaps Mavs will receive a smaller compensation to help it happen. Far below what he can contribute to the team. I have posted many examples of SnT so a compensation level can be clearly seen. I haven't seen any example from the past where the team received significant compensation for enabling UFA SnT.
3. Future flexibility and not keeping Brunson makes no sense to me. Losing your arguably second best player for nothing is not good in any way, imho. If you don't see him in your future, he should be traded sooner (unless you think Mavs are a contender this season). Mavs are responsible for the tax situation they put themsleves into. Teams plan such things years ahead and act soon enough. By deciding not to trade him, the only move left is to resign him.
4. The only player I would be discussing with Detroit is Grant. I have a hard time seeing Detroit moving Stewart for THJ, who is neutral value at best.
5. You could perhaps use Brunson salary in a trade for someone without sending additional salary. Example: Brunson to Detroit cap space, Dallas picks to Houston, Wood to Dallas. Asking Detroit nicely to do this as SnT instead of just signing Brunson in FA.
(03-16-2022, 01:19 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]1. Unless Mavs win it this year, losing Brunson in the summer is a management malpractice, imho. Either they totally misjudged the ability of the team how competitive they are, or they totally misjudged his willingness to stay or they totally misjudged long term cap situation. I think the only good solution for Mavs regarding Brunson is to resign him. We can revisit his trades at TDL next year, when he will be eligible to be traded.
2. Brunson is a FA. Mavs are not in any position to shop him around. He will chose where he wants to go and perhaps Mavs will receive a smaller compensation to help it happen. Far below what he can contribute to the team. I have posted many examples of SnT so a compensation level can be clearly seen. I haven't seen any example from the past where the team received significant compensation for enabling UFA SnT.
3. Future flexibility and not keeping Brunson makes no sense to me. Losing your arguably second best player for nothing is not good in any way, imho. If you don't see him in your future, he should be traded sooner (unless you think Mavs are a contender this season). Mavs are responsible for the tax situation they put themsleves into. Teams plan such things years ahead and act soon enough. By deciding not to trade him, the only move left is to resign him.
4. The only player I would be discussing with Detroit is Grant. I have a hard time seeing Detroit moving Stewart for THJ, who is neutral value at best.
5. You could perhaps use Brunson salary in a trade for someone without sending additional salary. Example: Brunson to Detroit cap space, Dallas picks to Houston, Wood to Dallas. Asking Detroit nicely to do this as SnT instead of just signing Brunson in FA.
You're right, I got caught up in trade talk and forgot these principles.
Has to be reiterated, not resigning JB at this point is an epic failure. Only option is to resign him at this point. Unfortunately, the ball for this option is entirely in JB's court.
(03-16-2022, 01:19 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]1. Unless Mavs win it this year, losing Brunson in the summer is a management malpractice
+1
How others don't see this... Your only option is to
resign him and THEN, if you want to trade him in a package for an obvious upgrade at the next TDL or later... That is the ONLY way.
If the Mavs decide not to resign Brunson, to avoid a bigger tax bill... I just can't go there...
Of course, Brunson has to want to be here, but if it comes out that money was the reason the Mavs didn't resign him....
Wouldn't keeping JB and going deeper into the tax give you more flexibility as long as that new contract is moveable? As impressive as SD has been, the sample size is way too small to want to move on from JB.
(03-16-2022, 03:00 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Wouldn't keeping JB and going deeper into the tax give you more flexibility as long as that new contract is moveable? As impressive as SD has been, the sample size is way too small to want to move on from JB.
Good to finally see you on board with the Dinwiddie / Bertans trade after being against it.
As for your point on JB, "This is the Way".....
Dinwiddie is a better player and might be more qualified to start next to Luka so sample size is meaningless when Dinwiddie as I pointed out before is and was a borderline all star. He is still not back to being himself but we can see already that he is a major piece now.
The issue with JB will come down to THJ so its really about THJ or JB and I think THJ is the guy that will get moved.
Another thing that gets overlooked with Brunson. His willingness to play WITH Luka. All of the men that play in the NBA were the best player on the court at some point in their career. They all have massive ego's (for good reason)... Finding a player(s) willing to play Robin for the entirety of their career sans Brunson won't be easy. Remember, it is still the honeymoon phase for Dinwiddie also. Saying all the right things now, but wanting to run your own show a year from now - could also rear it's head.
(03-16-2022, 03:21 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Good to finally see you on board with the Dinwiddie / Bertans trade after being against it.
As for your point on JB, "This is the Way".....
Dinwiddie is a better player and might be more qualified to start next to Luka so sample size is meaningless when Dinwiddie as I pointed out before is and was a borderline all star. He is still not back to being himself but we can see already that he is a major piece now.
The issue with JB will come down to THJ so its really about THJ or JB and I think THJ is the guy that will get moved.
Brunson is nearly on the exact same career trajectory as Dinwiddie, only that he does it shooting 10% higher from the field, and 6% higher from 3pt range.
Dinwiddie is currently shooting 14% above his career average from the field and 12% above from 3pt range for the Mavs. Maybe it´s a hot streak, maybe it is a case of Dinwiddie being more effective on a good team as a 3rd option, which only makes Brunson more valuable, cause he keeps the pressure on Dinwiddie lower.
They simply cannot lose Brunson. DFS averaging 15 PPG over the last 10.
This team simply functions too well at the moment. The next achievable big upgrade needs to come at the legit PF/C position.
(03-16-2022, 03:21 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Good to finally see you on board with the Dinwiddie / Bertans trade after being against it.
I wasn't "against it", I called it what it is, a bad trade. Bertans is as advertised, a league worst defender who is in a shooting slump and has a bad contract. I've never been a SD fan but that probably has a lot more to do with my love of his former running mate (LeVert). SD's play has surprised me and I like his attitude. I'm not sure it elevates the outlook of the team this year but we'll find out soon as the playoffs are quickly approaching. The flexibility angle for future dealings will be interesting but Bertans is far from an asset at this point. There is still no way we should have given up draft compensation to get the deal done.
(03-16-2022, 04:41 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I wasn't "against it", I called it what it is, a bad trade. Bertans is as advertised, a league worst defender who is in a shooting slump and has a bad contract. I've never been a SD fan but that probably has a lot more to do with my love of his former running mate (LeVert). SD's play has surprised me and I like his attitude. I'm not sure it elevates the outlook of the team this year but we'll find out soon as the playoffs are quickly approaching. The flexibility angle for future dealings will be interesting but Bertans is far from an asset at this point. There is still no way we should have given up draft compensation to get the deal done.
Bertans will come around, it takes shooters a while to adjust see Bullock. Don't go writing him off when his career averages suggests he is an elite shooter. Again Bertans will bounce back, it will just take time for his rhythm to come.
Yes you were against the trade and calling it a bad trade is an indication that you were against it.
It was not a bad trade considering we were dealing with a bad asset to begin with.
The 2nd round pick is a throwaway. The Mavs probably see that as a waste and will target a vet anyway.
Like I said before the trade was win, we got a starter and an elite shooter. Judging Bertans is a bit premature just as it was premature to judge Bullock after a bad start.
I guess I just disagree with the way you break down basketball metrics and the big picture.
Nothing wrong with agreeing to disagree but it still looks like the trad worked well for us, all things considered.
(03-16-2022, 04:59 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Yes you were against the trade and calling it a bad trade is an indication that you were against it.
Don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
(03-16-2022, 04:13 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Brunson is nearly on the exact same career trajectory as Dinwiddie, only that he does it shooting 10% higher from the field, and 6% higher from 3pt range.
Dinwiddie is currently shooting 14% above his career average from the field and 12% above from 3pt range for the Mavs. Maybe it´s a hot streak, maybe it is a case of Dinwiddie being more effective on a good team as a 3rd option, which only makes Brunson more valuable, cause he keeps the pressure on Dinwiddie lower.
They simply cannot lose Brunson. DFS averaging 15 PPG over the last 10.
This team simply functions too well at the moment. The next achievable big upgrade needs to come at the legit PF/C position.
Yes he is and you can throw Kyle Lowery in the mix as well as a comparison. I think we are slowly starting to see our core take form this year and as you said we can add to it. A quality PF or Center is the next piece and maybe THJ can be an asset to bring that to us.
You could see the Mavs do something like this:
Indiana Receives - THJ and 2023 Mavs Pick unprotected (From Knicks)
Knicks Receive - Myles Turner
Mavericks Receive - Mitchell Robinson (Sign and Trade)
That unlocks us for trades and helps everyone.
(03-16-2022, 05:03 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Don't put words in my mouth. Thanks.
LOL you just called it a bad trade. How is that not being against the trade?
Am I missing something?
(03-16-2022, 05:10 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]LOL you just called it a bad trade. How is that not being against the trade?
Am I missing something?
A person can think the trade is bad, but based on the outgoing player(s) and circumstances surrounding the trade (a player is always hurt, currently hurt with no timeline for return, and the trade deadline is tomorrow where you need the player off the team), you can be not against the trade.
I myself thought it was a bad trade until KP still didn’t play for another 2 weeks after the trade. That’s when I realized why TOR (trying to make a playoff push this year) backed out.
(03-16-2022, 06:26 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]A person can think the trade is bad, but based on the outgoing player(s) and circumstances surrounding the trade (a player is always hurt, currently hurt with no timeline for return, and the trade deadline is tomorrow where you need the player off the team), you can be not against the trade.
I myself thought it was a bad trade until KP still didn’t play for another 2 weeks after the trade. That’s when I realized why TOR (trying to make a playoff push this year) backed out.
Yeah I am totally with that and understand a person being against it or thinking it was a bad trade.
My reply at the time is and continues to be that it was the best trade we could get and better than what I expected to be honest. Fans typically over value their players but from the outside looking in KP is a bad asset.
The Mavs felt more comfortable gambling on two players that fit our system and turning them into positive assets making them easier movable pieces than KP. BTW Dinwiddie has made THJ expendable.
I predict Bertans will find his shooting as he gets more reps.
You guys had valid reasons to be against the trade but again the bigger picture makes it a good trade IMO.
(03-16-2022, 11:40 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]You know who could take Brunson in a deal without the complications others (NY) might have…Detroit. You know who might have interest in the 3-point shooting of THJ (or Bullock) and still have cap room…Detroit.
I’ll be interested to see who they draft with their top 3/4 pick. They have a star of the future at SG and the top 3 guys in the draft as I understand it (not an expert) are a C and two PF’s. I suspect they will build around Cunningham and this pick. Brunson makes sense as a PG if they pick a big. Teams with young stars at other positions need someone like Brunson to help those stars develop. THJ might help their total lack of 3 point shooting and is a home town boy.
This wouldn’t necessarily be about Grant (especially if we are trying to cut salary). But, Detroit has some other guys like Hayes, H. Diallo, Stewart and Olynyk that I’d be interested in. I could see Hayes as our developmental PG behind Luka and SD. I could see Diallo as another wing defender. Do they need Stewart and Olynyk if they draft a C? Do they need Grant and Bagley if they draft a PF. I’ll be keeping a close eye on Detroit’s draft situation as it might give a clue as to where they go once the draft is over.
What about a 3 team trade with the knicks?
Knicks get Brunson
Mavs get Grant and one of Hayes/Diallo/Stewart
Pistons get Mavs 2022 FRP, Mavs 2023 FRP(from NYK) and heavily protected Knicks FRP…………THJ, Rose, Burke for matching
The tax line is expected to jump to $147 mill this summer. So we would be below the apron
Im still less inclined to trade Brunson now than i was at TDL
(03-16-2022, 06:38 PM)Omega_Supreme Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah I am totally with that and understand a person being against it or thinking it was a bad trade.
My reply at the time is and continues to be that it was the best trade we could get and better than what I expected to be honest. Fans typically over value their players but from the outside looking in KP is a bad asset.
The Mavs felt more comfortable gambling on two players that fit our system and turning them into positive assets making them easier movable pieces than KP. BTW Dinwiddie has made THJ expendable.
I predict Bertans will find his shooting as he gets more reps.
You guys had valid reasons to be against the trade but again the bigger picture makes it a good trade IMO.
Disagree on most of this.
Don't know how you could have expected worse. Dinwiddie was a neutral asset at best, and Bertans is a significant negative. I'm doubting we will be able to dump that contract this coming offseason even if we gave up our first.
Dinwiddie does not make THJ expendable, THJ already did that by himself.
I'm sure Bertans will probably regress some to better shooting, but it does not change the fact that he is a 3&D player without the D. That is not worth anywhere near his contract.
If we are looking at the bigger picture, they should have dumped KP in the offseason when they had cap space to replace him. Even if they didn't dump him, they could have signed Dinwiddie and a KP replacement in Holmes with cap space. They knew they needed playmaking and they signed THJ, Bullock and WCS. Then they finally trade for it, but leave a gaping hole in the frontcourt.
After the failures of the offseason, I would have rather waited until the next offseason to move KP when there would be more options. We got very lucky that Dinwiddie is fitting in as well as he is, and he wont play this well the entire season. I say lucky because if we thought it was going to workout this well we should have just signed him in the offseason.