(08-17-2021, 12:47 AM)sefant Wrote: [ -> ]Luka / Kleber + 6.8
Luka / DFS + 3.7
Luka / Powell + 2.7
Luka / KP + 0.5
KP / Kleber + 8.1
KP / WCS + 3.9
KP / Powell -10
Those numbers do scare me to trade Maxi.
Exactly. This is why nobody should WANT Maxi gone IMO. But I think it is the cost of doing business likely.
(08-17-2021, 06:35 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]
The Mavs as currently constructed are full of stand still shooters: THJ is a gunner and would rather release a 3 quickly, Brown may drive more than THJ but he is more of a shoot it first guy, Bullock and DFS aren't the best in creativity and will be there for open shots only. And KP? I would think majority of his shots will still be from the outside and not near the rim.
Now Lauri's calling card is still shooting, but this 7 footer can score on a variety of ways, some of which can be unassisted. My best guess is that Sterling and Lauri would be asked to mix things up a bit as they are the most capable dudes to attack on their own and not rely on a Luka assist. Lauri may not start, but he can thrive on a bench role and abuse second units pretty much what Jet has done in the past. It's not like he will be playing for his next contract when he already has a 3 year deal. If Lauri is okay with this plan, then bring him in, if not, just keep Maxi.
This is how I see it also. I think there may be a perception that LM is nothing more than a younger version of Maxi who can only stand in the corner and hit open 3's. Not true at all. I think his best role would be as an offensive focal point off the bench. Here are some numbers from last season...when Chicago just kicked him around like a rag doll in terms of his role.
Yes, he can shoot from the outside...87th percentile in 3's and 93rd in Corner 3's.
But, he can also score in isolation...93rd percentile in ISO EFG%
He moves well without the ball...95th percentile in Movement Impact
and he can play the PNR...88th percentile in Roll Impact and 68th percentile in screen assists.
He is VERY efficient when he shoots...91st percentile in TS% and 95th percentile in PPP.
And all of that was in his bad season where Chicago couldn't figure out what to do with him. No matter what the outgoing deal is, there will be some other backup big on the team who can come off the bench with him. I agree Sterling Brown will be part of the lineups that include LM. Same with Brunson. In fact, LM and Brunson might both be among the top finishers for sixth man if it plays out like this. One of our biggest issues is solving the non-Luka minutes. With less depth, Carlisle was forced to try to split his starters most of the game. Luka with starters = good. Luka with scrubs held their own. Luka sitting = bad (even if 3 or 4 starters were in the game). LM off the bench should allow for more platooned lineups and serve as KP insurance on the nights he sits or is injured.
Here's a fun flashback...Rookie LM vs. the Unicorn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrVcVfH1XA
(08-17-2021, 07:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]This is how I see it also. I think there may be a perception that LM is nothing more than a younger version of Maxi who can only stand in the corner and hit open 3's. Not true at all. I think his best role would be as an offensive focal point off the bench. Here are some numbers from last season...when Chicago just kicked him around like a rag doll in terms of his role.
Yes, he can shoot from the outside...87th percentile in 3's and 93rd in Corner 3's.
But, he can also score in isolation...93rd percentile in ISO EFG%
He moves well without the ball...95th percentile in Movement Impact
and he can play the PNR...88th percentile in Roll Impact and 68th percentile in screen assists.
He is VERY efficient when he shoots...91st percentile in TS% and 95th percentile in PPP.
And all of that was in his bad season where Chicago couldn't figure out what to do with him. No matter what the outgoing deal is, there will be some other backup big on the team who can come off the bench with him. I agree Sterling Brown will be part of the lineups that include LM. Same with Brunson. In fact, LM and Brunson might both be among the top finishers for sixth man if it plays out like this. One of our biggest issues is solving the non-Luka minutes. With less depth, Carlisle was forced to try to split his starters most of the game. Luka with starters = good. Luka with scrubs held their own. Luka sitting = bad (even if 3 or 4 starters were in the game). LM off the bench should allow for more platooned lineups and serve as KP insurance on the nights he sits or is injured.
Here's a fun flashback...Rookie LM vs. the Unicorn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrVcVfH1XA
Maxi is a nice player who gives a lot of effort and plays good defense. He is a 7ppg 5 rpg bench player. He is not in the same tier as Markannen. If its him for LM you do that trade. Brunson and picks on the other hand are some of the remaining limited assets that can be used in a bigger trade and Id be hesitant to use anything other than a second round pick.
(08-17-2021, 07:38 AM)haveitall Wrote: [ -> ]Maxi is a nice player who gives a lot of effort and plays good defense. He is a 7ppg 5 rpg bench player. He is not in the same tier as Markannen. If its him for LM you do that trade. Brunson and picks on the other hand are some of the remaining limited assets that can be used in a bigger trade and Id be hesitant to use anything other than a second round pick.
The details definitely matter. It also matters whether we are dealing strictly with Chicago for LM or whether it is a combo deal where we get LM and Dragic. I'll continue to ask...if the former, why hasn't it happened already (which leads me to believe it is the latter and we are waiting to be able to aggregate Moses). BTW, we don't have to wait to send Moses to Chicago right now, even while also sending Powell or Maxi as long as the LM salary matches Powell or Maxi on a BYC basis. Chicago can take Moses into their TPE. The aggregation issue with Moses is strictly a Dragic trade match issue.
Either Maxi or Powell almost has to be in any version of this. If LM is returning, I'm fine with either.
Then, you need some combination of smaller contracts if you are doing the deal that trade matches Dragic and brings LM into our TPE. Those might include Brunson, DFS, WCS, Moses, Green Burke and Terry. Brunson and DFS are a bridge too far for me. The rest? They can send any combination they want as far as I'm concerned. An off season of LM, Dragic, Bullock and S. Brown is fantastic no matter what the outgoing combo is as long as it doesn't include Brunson or Finney-Smith.
(08-17-2021, 04:50 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]What do you think Maxi Kleber´s trade value is? An active All-Star? If it becomes a straight swap of Kleber + Burke vs. Markkanen, it also becomes a salary dump of Burke that creates an additional roster spot.
Also, if I´m Nico, maybe my thinking is there are only two outcomes:
1. Porzingis returns to form and becomes the defensive presence of the past, then it´s a good fit with Markkanen.
2. Porzingis does not return to form and I have to sell very low, say Harris+Bamba. At least my C replacement only has to be good at rebounding, shot-blocking and rim protection now, cause I theoretically already have the 20 PPG stretch shooter replacement in-house.
Also if you take Kleber + Porzingis off the 2022/2023 salary cap (Harris +Bamba expirings), we are a Dwight Powell expiring contract away from having $20-25M in capspace next summer.
Let´s not forget this is not Nico´s team yet. He has no attachment to some of these players.
Additional thinking in that direction...
Maybe it goes even further and Nico already has a deal for Porzingis in place/mind. What if the plan is to move Porzingis to Sacramento for Hield + Holmes, but they have to wait until some pieces are trade package eligible? Generally speaking it seems rather strange that the Kings haven´t shoved some chips into the middle yet, whether it´s for Porzingis or somebody else.
I think Maxis trade value don't really bother me, I want to keep him on the team.
Agree with all the other stuff. Just hate Bamba as a player/prospect.
(08-17-2021, 07:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]This is how I see it also. I think there may be a perception that LM is nothing more than a younger version of Maxi who can only stand in the corner and hit open 3's. Not true at all. I think his best role would be as an offensive focal point off the bench. Here are some numbers from last season...when Chicago just kicked him around like a rag doll in terms of his role.
Yes, he can shoot from the outside...87th percentile in 3's and 93rd in Corner 3's.
But, he can also score in isolation...93rd percentile in ISO EFG%
He moves well without the ball...95th percentile in Movement Impact
and he can play the PNR...88th percentile in Roll Impact and 68th percentile in screen assists.
He is VERY efficient when he shoots...91st percentile in TS% and 95th percentile in PPP.
And all of that was in his bad season where Chicago couldn't figure out what to do with him. No matter what the outgoing deal is, there will be some other backup big on the team who can come off the bench with him. I agree Sterling Brown will be part of the lineups that include LM. Same with Brunson. In fact, LM and Brunson might both be among the top finishers for sixth man if it plays out like this. One of our biggest issues is solving the non-Luka minutes. With less depth, Carlisle was forced to try to split his starters most of the game. Luka with starters = good. Luka with scrubs held their own. Luka sitting = bad (even if 3 or 4 starters were in the game). LM off the bench should allow for more platooned lineups and serve as KP insurance on the nights he sits or is injured.
Here's a fun flashback...Rookie LM vs. the Unicorn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrVcVfH1XA
1) What was that I saw??? Oh my word...I haven't seen it in forever...what do they call it? Oh yeah...I think it's called "an on-time, on-target entry pass to the post"....
Wow, I had almost forgotten that those things exist.
2) OH MY GOSH...someone ACTUALLY RAN a cross screen with a GUARD to get KP on the low post.... I thought there was some rule that the ONLY WAY you can get in the post is to put someone in a high screen, let them slip it and have to pin a guard while the perimeter players pass the ball back and forth between each other for 5-6 seconds figuring out if the pass into the post is a good thing or not. Wow....what a novel idea...it's almost like someone posted videos of Dirk getting that same play to help him get to the post without being harassed... Call me crazy, but it's kind of funny that no one thought to try that last year. Except once and KP immediately turned baseline, jump hook and scored...
3) LOOK....a rare sighting of an actual set play being called. I thought the NBA had outlawed that. A screen down from a guard on the low post allowing a big man to move to the center of the floor. Amazing...what genius, what cunning, what guile...oh wait, no, that's common 5th basketball plays that coaches teach all the time...my bad, I just hadn't seen it in so long because all I watch is the Mavs.
Markannen looked great! I'm sold if that is what we are getting!
(08-17-2021, 12:47 AM)sefant Wrote: [ -> ]Luka / Kleber + 6.8
Luka / DFS + 3.7
Luka / Powell + 2.7
Luka / KP + 0.5
KP / Kleber + 8.1
KP / WCS + 3.9
KP / Powell -10
Those numbers do scare me to trade Maxi.
Maxi was the glue guy that made the front court work. Was leading the Mavs in +/- for most of the season (his numbers plummeted in the last few weeks, probably because of the achilles issues). In my opinion Marrkanen would be a KP replacement/insurence. Not a Maxi replacement.
And I am not sold on Markkanen´s ability to create for himself. His midrange percentages are really bad (low 30s). His pick and roll numbers are even worse. 25.5 percentile in 19/20. 33.3 percentile in 20/21.
(08-17-2021, 07:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]But, he can also score in isolation...93rd percentile in ISO EFG%
He moves well without the ball...95th percentile in Movement Impact
and he can play the PNR...88th percentile in Roll Impact and 68th percentile in screen assists.
@"DanSchwartzgan" talk to me about these numbers. The PNR ones in particular. Like @"dirkfansince1998" I have seen LM's PNR numbers be below average. Where did you find these exactly?
(08-17-2021, 08:26 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]1) What was that I saw??? Oh my word...I haven't seen it in forever...what do they call it? Oh yeah...I think it's called "an on-time, on-target entry pass to the post"....
Wow, I had almost forgotten that those things exist.
2) OH MY GOSH...someone ACTUALLY RAN a cross screen with a GUARD to get KP on the low post.... I thought there was some rule that the ONLY WAY you can get in the post is to put someone in a high screen, let them slip it and have to pin a guard while the perimeter players pass the ball back and forth between each other for 5-6 seconds figuring out if the pass into the post is a good thing or not. Wow....what a novel idea...it's almost like someone posted videos of Dirk getting that same play to help him get to the post without being harassed... Call me crazy, but it's kind of funny that no one thought to try that last year. Except once and KP immediately turned baseline, jump hook and scored...
3) LOOK....a rare sighting of an actual set play being called. I thought the NBA had outlawed that. A screen down from a guard on the low post allowing a big man to move to the center of the floor. Amazing...what genius, what cunning, what guile...oh wait, no, that's common 5th basketball plays that coaches teach all the time...my bad, I just hadn't seen it in so long because all I watch is the Mavs.
Markannen looked great! I'm sold if that is what we are getting!
That´s how all the great teams play. Cannot wait to run the 17/18 Knicks (ranked 20th) or Bulls offense (28th). And don´t even start with the Dirk comparisation. KP is a career low 40s shooter from midrange. Mediocre post player. Was just as bad when the Knicks called all of those beautiful plays for him. Markkanen is even worse. Low 30s from midrange.
If you are trying to lose a game (like the Bulls or Knicks in the mentioned season) play calls like this are a good way to do it. Not for all players. Completly understand why a team would run plays like this for Dirk, Durant or Embiid. But not for Markkanen or KP.
I think anyone not named Luka will be coming and going for the next several years until this team is a consistent title contender. The players we don't want to lose are most likely going to be the ones we lose. That's what happens when trading for good players. I personally like Maxi, but I will take LM over him anyway. I would also trade anyone else on this team not named Luka if it improves the team. My point is we probably shouldn't get too held up on the supporting cast here. They will change at times.
(08-17-2021, 07:25 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]This is how I see it also. I think there may be a perception that LM is nothing more than a younger version of Maxi who can only stand in the corner and hit open 3's. Not true at all. I think his best role would be as an offensive focal point off the bench. Here are some numbers from last season...when Chicago just kicked him around like a rag doll in terms of his role.
Yes, he can shoot from the outside...87th percentile in 3's and 93rd in Corner 3's.
But, he can also score in isolation...93rd percentile in ISO EFG%
He moves well without the ball...95th percentile in Movement Impact
and he can play the PNR...88th percentile in Roll Impact and 68th percentile in screen assists.
He is VERY efficient when he shoots...91st percentile in TS% and 95th percentile in PPP.
And all of that was in his bad season where Chicago couldn't figure out what to do with him. No matter what the outgoing deal is, there will be some other backup big on the team who can come off the bench with him. I agree Sterling Brown will be part of the lineups that include LM. Same with Brunson. In fact, LM and Brunson might both be among the top finishers for sixth man if it plays out like this. One of our biggest issues is solving the non-Luka minutes. With less depth, Carlisle was forced to try to split his starters most of the game. Luka with starters = good. Luka with scrubs held their own. Luka sitting = bad (even if 3 or 4 starters were in the game). LM off the bench should allow for more platooned lineups and serve as KP insurance on the nights he sits or is injured.
Here's a fun flashback...Rookie LM vs. the Unicorn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrVcVfH1XA
If DAL can get LM and THAT KP, then it's .... Look out NBA.
That offense would apply a pressure that would only help the defense.
(08-17-2021, 09:19 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]If DAL can get LM and THAT KP, then it's .... Look out NBA.
That offense would apply a pressure that would only help the defense.
Beauty of highlights. KP needed 24 FGA to score 24pts. Missed all of his FTs. 46.6% TS, 5 tov. Responsible for half of Markkanen´s points because he did not defend the 3-point line.
(08-17-2021, 08:36 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]That´s how all the great teams play. Cannot wait to run the 17/18 Knicks (ranked 20th) or Bulls offense (28th). And don´t even start with the Dirk comparisation. KP is a career low 40s shooter from midrange. Mediocre post player. Was just as bad when the Knicks called all of those beautiful plays for him. Markkanen is even worse. Low 30s from midrange.
If you are trying to lose a game (like the Bulls or Knicks in the mentioned season) play calls like this are a good way to do it. Not for all players. Completly understand why a team would run plays like this for Dirk, Durant or Embiid. But not for Markkanen or KP.
Oh, so calling plays and running sets to get your top players open shots is a bad thing, and only bad teams run plays and sets to get their top offensive options open shots. Gotcha... Good talk.
(08-17-2021, 09:31 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, so calling plays and running sets to get people open shots is a bad thing, and only bad teams run play and sets to get their players open shots. Gotcha... Good talk.
I don't know if it's a binary, black-and-white thing like that, but the whole "teams are too good at defending set plays now, so getting shots off of the flow offense is better" narrative is something I've heard multiple coaches promote over the past few years and not something unique to Carlisle/Dallas. Basically, the idea is that the offense reacts to the defense rather than the other way around.
When it comes to Porzingis, specifically, why would it make sense to run plays for him when he has only really ever been efficient in the opposite scenario? NY was
bad when he was featured there, and in order to improve since he arrived, Dallas has depended on running their offense through him less and less as time has gone on. At least, that's how it seems to me.
(08-17-2021, 09:31 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, so calling plays and running sets to get your top players open shots is a bad thing, and only bad teams run plays and sets to get their top offensive options open shots. Gotcha... Good talk.
I literally stated that it makes sense to run those kind of plays for better midrange shooters or post players. If the top player isn´t able to hit league average efficiency it won´t lead to a lot of wins. Good luck with that approach.
(08-17-2021, 09:31 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Oh, so calling plays and running sets to get your top players open shots is a bad thing, and only bad teams run plays and sets to get their top offensive options open shots. Gotcha... Good talk.
I don't think those things you said are what he said
![[Image: the-princess-bride-inigo-montoya.gif]](https://c.tenor.com/sjlLRR-lZtwAAAAM/the-princess-bride-inigo-montoya.gif)
(08-17-2021, 09:36 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't know if it's a binary, black-and-white thing like that, but the whole "teams are too good at defending set plays now, so getting shots off of the flow offense is better" narrative is something I've heard multiple coaches promote over the past few years and not something unique to Carlisle/Dallas. Basically, the idea is that the offense reacts to the defense rather than the other way around.
When it comes to Porzingis, specifically, why would it make sense to run plays for him when he has only really ever been efficient in the opposite scenario? NY was bad when he was featured there, and in order to improve since he arrived, Dallas has depended on running their offense through him less and less as time has gone on. At least, that's how it seems to me.
That is my point...my post was a sarcastic response to a dumb assertion.
It depends on the type of player. One isn't "less valuable" than another necessarily, it's a player by player basis. It's in EVERY sport.
This is an extreme example to highlight the point. If you have a strong big running back, you run the ball, not just split him out continuously and run bubble screens when he isn't super quick and doesn't catch well. You CERTAINLY don't do it repeatedly, and then proclaim the guy a failure because you don't get the production you'd like to see out of him. NO...as a coach, you run things that work, within the philosophy of how you want to try to win, that maximize players.
That's why you don't put THJ in the dunker spot and you put Dwight Powell there. It's not even basic basketball, it's basic sports.
If a play gets someone open, then great do it. If it's flow, then it's flow. The point is to keep the defense off balance, so set plays mixed with flow makes more sense. The truth is the "flow offense" is similar to the spread in football and you come to the line with 3 plays and depending on that the defense does you do that...and sometimes, you don't audible into it, the team reads it optimally or in more complex versions, you see the stand up and look to the sidelines and get the signals.
All the same, you don't just not have a structure and run around hoping things happen. You put players in certain spots at certain times to help the team succeed, by helping them succeed in the moment. The truth of the matter is that the defense will eventually catch up to "flow" (unless they just keep basically legislatiing defense out of the game)...as it will to the all wing, positionless basketball and it will come back around again in some sort of resurgence in the cycle goes again.