MavsBoard

(07-27-2021, 11:58 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think so. Cuban declined to comment on Andrew Baker. Andrew Baker is a new (or potential new?) hire. Keith has been with the Mavs for 40 SEASONS!!! 

Cuban also declined to comment on Bob (in the Nico/Kidd presser), current employee. That is why I said Keith and Bob are same - from that perspective. If you don't comment on non mastheads, you don't comment on Bob, Finley, Baker or Keith. But as I said, I think not commenting on mastheads is just something Cuban made up to avoid Bob questions.

Why would it be bad to say - yes we hired Andrew, because we think he is a great guy. Only Cuban knows that

Usually teams hype front office moves...this crap Cuban is doing is dumb...

You can only be secretive about so many things not everything...

(07-27-2021, 12:16 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban also declined to comment on Bob (in the Nico/Kidd presser), current employee. That is why I said Keith and Bob are same - from that perspective. If you don't comment on non mastheads, you don't comment on Bob, Finley, Baker or Keith. But as I said, I think not commenting on mastheads is just something Cuban made up to avoid Bob questions.

Why would it be bad to say - yes we hired Andrew, because we think he is a great guy. Only Cuban knows that

You're reminidng me why I don't argue with you. He isn't commenting on decisions that Nico is in charge of. Keith isn't in that category because he's been a Mav for 40 years and Nico agreed to keep Keith when he joined the Mavs.

(07-27-2021, 12:06 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]This may or may not be true, but I wonder who MC’s new bright shiny toy is now? Seems to me it’s Nico, even if MC kept Bob on the payroll, that doesn’t mean Nico will pay him any attention going forward. Leaving Bob on an island will soon get old for MC and I’d bet he goes with the bright new shiny toy’s direction if Nico does in fact not have the authority to reup Bob’s contract. 


We don’t hear about MC’s man crush Parsons anymore, if Nico doesn’t want Bob and isn’t given the authority to not reup that contract, he has avenues to make MC realize Bob is not gonna work out here.

I didn't say I think Bob will stay. I actually expect he is gone. 

As for the "shiny toys", I think that was a problem all along and I am affraid it will continue to be a problem. Bob wasn't the first case as you pointed out, and there is absolutely no guarantee he was the last. The way I see it - Cuban is not an owner who decides on general strategy and lets the man in charge execute it. He likes to be very involved in creating the plan and loves to take quick and unexpected decisions as they go along. Cuban loves his circle of trust and GM is not the only one he listens to. So it is totally possible GM will be overvoted on key decisions. It was like that before and nothing has indicated to me that it has changed now. Cuban actually said it is this way - he listens to guys and makes decision.

(07-27-2021, 12:19 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]You can only be secretive about so many things not everything...

I think he's just staying in his lane. I thought he was being weird at the press conference. But it makes more sense now. Andrew and Bob are both Nico's. Cuban is actually trying to stay in his lane. I think we're slow to see it because this is so new for Cuban.

(07-27-2021, 12:20 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]He isn't commenting on decisions that Nico is in charge of. Keith isn't in that category because he's been a Mav for 40 years and Nico agreed to keep Keith when he joined the Mavs.

Cuban said he is not commenting on employees, that are not visible (non mastheads in latest iteration). He clearly specified that. Never said anything about stuff decisions being Nico decision. 

Besides, I don't understand your point here. Why is Nico not in charge of Keith? You are saying that Nico and Cuban had an agreement on who stays and goes before Nico signed?

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(07-27-2021, 12:22 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I think he's just staying in his lane. I thought he was being weird at the press conference. But it makes more sense now. Andrew and Bob are both Nico's. Cuban is actually trying to stay in his lane. I think we're slow to see it because this is so new for Cuban.

But why would be so difficult to say it - Nico is in charge. Period. Very simple. But he didn't say that. He said he has his circle of trust and decisions are made there. By him.

(07-27-2021, 12:22 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't say I think Bob will stay

Reread, I didn’t say you did. I said IF Nico can’t reup him.

(07-27-2021, 10:54 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]First off, Bob was never the same as Keith. You don't know your Mavs history. 

Yes, let's talk about Keith Grant's history with the Mavs.  In 1995, he was hired as the GM.

-- In the 1995 Draft the Mavs had the 12th and 24th picks.  Prior to the draft, Antonio McDyess openly pined to play with Jason Kidd, going so far as saying, "He's my hero."  The Mavs desperately needed an athletic PF.  Instead, Grant was out maneuvered by the Nuggets, who got McDyess with a lesser package than what the Mavs could've offered (the 15th pick and Rodney Rogers).  The Mavs went on to draft total stiff Cherokee Parks ahead of Michael Finley, and picked another stiff at 24 in Loren Meyer.

-- In 1995, I was in college. One of my business mentors was an older gentleman who was buds with owner Donald Carter.  From time to time my friend would pull me aside and tell me about inside scuttlebutt on trade talk.  I remember it like yesterday when he said the Mavs were in on getting Alonzo Mourning.  He said it was down to the Mavs and Heat.  The Heat were of course offering Glen Rice.  The Mavs offered Jamal Mashburn (a later trade proves the Heat really liked him).  Of the two, the Heat preferred Rice, unless the Mavs would sweeten the pot with a #1.  The Mavs refused.  The rest is history.

-- In the 1996 Draft it was largely considered to be six picks who set themselves above the rest (Yes, that would be disproven later, but the value at the time was considered a top six -- Iverson, Camby, Abdur-Rahim, Marbury, R.Allen and Antoine Walker)  As luck would have it, the Mavs had the #6 pick.  In other words, there's value to get to that plateau.  What did the Mavs and Grant do?  They traded down from #6 to #9 with the Celtics and also gave up an unprotected first for Eric Montross (who had sucked his rookie year).  An unprotected 1st and less draft pick value just to get an unathletic, underperforming center.  Just awful.  Oh, and in case you don't know, Montross only played a year and a half terrible seasons with the team before being a total throw-in in the Shawn Bradley deal.

Grant then went on to take Samaki Walker ahead of Dampier, Kobe, Peja, Nash and Jermaine O'Neal in arguably the second greatest draft ever.  Basically, as a GM in that draft, you could fall ass-backwards into a multi-year All-Star and yet, Grant still fucked it up.  (I remember going to the Mavs Draft Party that year.  After the Samaki pick Grant was interviewed on the jumbotron.  When he stated, "We think Samaki is legit.", the crowd booed their asses off.  Of course, we all booed following the Cherokee Parks/Loren Meier picks, too.  The whole crowd collectively felt like, "Damnit, Keith, we can all see these are terrible moves.  Why the hell can't you???"  After two years of booing, the Mavs stopped holding draft parties.)

Shortly after the 1995-96 Season, Grant resigned.  He gave a press conference in his front yard where he said he couldn't deal with the pressures of being a GM.  And, alas, that's how a used car salesman like Frank Zaccanelli became the team's GM and was put in a position to trade the team's franchise player.  Geez.

To sum up Keith Grant: he was a guy that was always "a day late and a dollar short".  Because of this he was reactionary, which is a terrible quality to have.  Because he didn't have the wherewithal to get McDyess, he shoehorned in Samaki Walker.  Because he couldn't do what was necessary to land Mourning, he arguably gave up more to get a worse player in Montross.  And, to bring this terrible period full circle, his replacement traded their phenom PG in Kidd for Finley, a guy he could've just had if he'd taken him instead of Parks.

Now, based on this logic, can't you see why Grant is one of the behind the scenes guys who constantly push "Plan Powder"?  It's as if the plan after failing is always to double, triple and quadruple down even when it's proven to be disastrous.  That's how, in Keith Grant fashion, "Plan Powder" goes from abandoning a championship team with visions of franchise players only to wind up with Chandler Parsons.

TL;dr - Gimme Bob over Grant any day.

(07-27-2021, 12:26 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban said he is not commenting on employees, that are not visible (non mastheads in latest iteration). He clearly specified that. Never said anything about stuff decisions being Nico decision. 

You're being overly literal. As time goes on it looks to me like we're seeing Mark use that as his out when someone asks him about something that is Nico's responsibility. 

(07-27-2021, 12:26 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Besides, I don't understand your point here. Why is Nico not in charge of Keith? You are saying that Nico and Cuban had an agreement on who stays and goes before Nico signed?

Nico is now Keith's boss. But Keith is not a new hire. Yes, I'm sure that Nico agreed to keep Keith when he took the job. It's a smart move. Cleaning house on day one would have made year one much more difficult. Keith and Fin would both be great helpers for a new boss getting up to speed. I can't imagine Nico feeling his toes were stepped on by Cuban mentioning 40 year Mavs, Mav Encyclopedia, Keith Grant. 

(07-27-2021, 12:26 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]But why would be so difficult to say it - Nico is in charge. Period. Very simple. But he didn't say that.

Cuban didn't say what you thought of to say because Cuban said what he thought of to say.

I have this same conversation with someone I'm really close to. "Why did you do it like that?" Me: "Because that's the way I thought to do it. I couldn't have done it the way you thought to do it because I didn't think of doing it that way." 

Why should the standard be whether or not Cuban said it the way Omahen thought to say it? 

(07-27-2021, 12:26 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]He said he has his circle of trust and decisions are made there. By him.

Yes, he said, "there's a lot of money involved, so I have final say". That comment was obviously about player contracts. Mark has to check off on the 20 million dollar checks.

(07-27-2021, 12:50 PM)RasheedsBigWhiteSpot Wrote: [ -> ]Now, based on this logic, can't you see why Grant is one of the behind the scenes guys who constantly push "Plan Powder"? 

For some reason I'd gotten the impression that Keith has been more on the administrative side of assising the GM for decades now. Do you know that Keith is a team builder these days, or are you just guessing?

(07-27-2021, 12:50 PM)RasheedsBigWhiteSpot Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, let's talk about Keith Grant's history with the Mavs.  In 1995, he was hired as the GM.

-- In the 1995 Draft the Mavs had the 12th and 24th picks.  Prior to the draft, Antonio McDyess openly pined to play with Jason Kidd, going so far as saying, "He's my hero."  The Mavs desperately needed an athletic PF.  Instead, Grant was out maneuvered by the Nuggets, who got McDyess with a lesser package than what the Mavs could've offered (the 15th pick and Rodney Rogers).  The Mavs went on to draft total stiff Cherokee Parks ahead of Michael Finley, and picked another stiff at 24 in Loren Meyer.

-- In 1995, I was in college. One of my business mentors was an older gentleman who was buds with owner Donald Carter.  From time to time my friend would pull me aside and tell me about inside scuttlebutt on trade talk.  I remember it like yesterday when he said the Mavs were in on getting Alonzo Mourning.  He said it was down to the Mavs and Heat.  The Heat were of course offering Glen Rice.  The Mavs offered Jamal Mashburn (a later trade proves the Heat really liked him).  Of the two, the Heat preferred Rice, unless the Mavs would sweeten the pot with a #1.  The Mavs refused.  The rest is history.

-- In the 1996 Draft it was largely considered to be six picks who set themselves above the rest (Yes, that would be disproven later, but the value at the time was considered a top six -- Iverson, Camby, Abdur-Rahim, Marbury, R.Allen and Antoine Walker)  As luck would have it, the Mavs had the #6 pick.  In other words, there's value to get to that plateau.  What did the Mavs and Grant do?  They traded down from #6 to #9 with the Celtics and also gave up an unprotected first for Eric Montross (who had sucked his rookie year).  An unprotected 1st and less draft pick value just to get an unathletic, underperforming center.  Just awful.  Oh, and in case you don't know, Montross only played a year and a half terrible seasons with the team before being a total throw-in in the Shawn Bradley deal.

Grant then went on to take Samaki Walker ahead of Dampier, Kobe, Peja, Nash and Jermaine O'Neal in arguably the second greatest draft ever.  Basically, as a GM in that draft, you could fall ass-backwards into a multi-year All-Star and yet, Grant still fucked it up.  (I remember going to the Mavs Draft Party that year.  After the Samaki pick Grant was interviewed on the jumbotron.  When he stated, "We think Samaki is legit.", the crowd booed their asses off.  Of course, we all booed following the Cherokee Parks/Loren Meier picks, too.  The whole crowd collectively felt like, "Damnit, Keith, we can all see these are terrible moves.  Why the hell can't you???"  After two years of booing, the Mavs stopped holding draft parties.)

Shortly after the 1995-96 Season, Grant resigned.  He gave a press conference in his front yard where he said he couldn't deal with the pressures of being a GM.  And, alas, that's how a used car salesman like Frank Zaccanelli became the team's GM and was put in a position to trade the team's franchise player.  Geez.

To sum up Keith Grant: he was a guy that was always "a day late and a dollar short".  Because of this he was reactionary, which is a terrible quality to have.  Because he didn't have the wherewithal to get McDyess, he shoehorned in Samaki Walker.  Because he couldn't do what was necessary to land Mourning, he arguably gave up more to get a worse player in Montross.  And, to bring this terrible period full circle, his replacement traded their phenom PG in Kidd for Finley, a guy he could've just had if he'd taken him instead of Parks.

Now, based on this logic, can't you see why Grant is one of the behind the scenes guys who constantly push "Plan Powder"?  It's as if the plan after failing is always to double, triple and quadruple down even when it's proven to be disastrous.  That's how, in Keith Grant fashion, "Plan Powder" goes from abandoning a championship team with visions of franchise players only to wind up with Chandler Parsons.

TL;dr - Gimme Bob over Grant any day.

So Keith's the guy who is (was?) supposed to understand the FA landscape and how to best leverage that for talent acquisition? 

(07-27-2021, 01:24 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/All_Things_Mavs/stat...30694?s=20

Thank God we are NOT running out this ground ball.  I stand corrected.

I called this "Dwight Howard 2.0", but I was wrong....the Mavs would still be waiting and making cartoons about Kawhi if this was Dwight Howard 2.0.

It's a new day in Mavsland...so let's see if it's going to stay a good thing.

(07-27-2021, 01:24 PM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/All_Things_Mavs/stat...30694?s=20

Meh... He wasn't coming anyway.

In case you're wondering about all the reports so early of who the Mavs (and other teams) are likely to be interested in when free agency opens, why we see so many names, and what they mean ...

Free agency negotiations have already started. And, with some targets, ended. Even if, technically, free agency hasn't opened yet.

The Mavs didn't "move on" from Kawhi due to a decision to pick a different target with a better chance. They did it after already taking their shot to entice him, and being told that Kawhi isn't interested.

Unlike with Kawhi, they are getting POSITIVE feedback from Lowry's camp, so far.

(07-27-2021, 12:20 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]You're reminidng me why I don't argue with you. He isn't commenting on decisions that Nico is in charge of. Keith isn't in that category because he's been a Mav for 40 years and Nico agreed to keep Keith when he joined the Mavs.

I dont understand why you're arguing with him.  He is right.

When asked about Bob, Cuban said he doesn't discuss anyone that isn't on the masthead.
When asked about Grant (who isn't on the masthead), he confirms that he is still employed by the Mavs.
That's a contradiction.
Simple as that.

(07-27-2021, 03:04 PM)wmffl87 Wrote: [ -> ]I dont understand why you're arguing with him and what your argument is.  He is right.

When asked about Bob, Cuban said he doesn't discuss anyone that isn't on the masthead.
When asked about Grant (who isn't on the masthead), he confirms that he is still employed by the Mavs.
That's a contradiction.
Simple as that.

Ha ha!!

Don't mind mind me then. Go live your live your life without nuance. By the way, do you have relationsihps with humans?

I suspect we all may be reading way too much into the relatively few remarks that have been thrown out in answer to questioning about the organizational structure from the time of the Nico/Kidd hires forward. 

The remarks have been, to some extent, off-the-cuff, and tbh, not that consistent. Thus, we have reasonable people interpreting them as a firm indication of a drastic sea change in future operations, or a sign that the structure will be mostly the same with some different faces, and everywhere in between. 

We're a fan board, and that's to be expected in a time of sparse news. We try to wring every drop of meaning we can out of whatever there is. 

I imagine that none of these remarks was intended as something handed down to Moses from the top of the mountain, and that the Mavs will be feeling their way through this as time goes on. I rather suspect that, on matters that Cuban wants to weigh in on, he will find a way to do so. However, we're all essentially guessing at this point, and time will tell.

(07-27-2021, 03:14 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]we're all essentially guessing at this point, and time will tell