(07-25-2021, 11:14 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]When KP and Powell play together, KP is the center on defense and Powell is the center on offense. You do not want Powell protecting the rim. It's the same when Powell/Maxi play together. The KP/Maxi did not work this time because KP lost so much mobility (it didn't help that Maxi was having a down year and also is probably better suited to backup small ball 5). Playing him on the perimeter is not going to help the problem (it will exacerbate it). Either KP needs to get his previous mobility back, or there is no hope for having a good defense with him on the floor and he must be moved at all costs.
No, Powell always took the bigger player on D so KP COULD roam and protect the rim. That's why I always said Powell sucks in that role cause bigger players abused him. KP's mobility is back, he'll have a full offseason to work on his body and game and be back to where he was. There is no degenerative issue.
There is plenty of hope for having good defense, with a good defensive scheme and players that can/will actually execute it. If we continue to get one way offensive players, there is no hope for a good defense regardless of how mobile and good KP is. It's a very symbiotic relationship and you can't have 1 without the other. KP is a good roaming rim protector. He's plenty mobile and has a good feel for D and rim protection. Just need the players. He had an off year.
I know you guys have all watched other players have off years and come back as good or better than ever, not sure why you keep pushing the narrative that this is what he is at 25 years old. Starting to get ridiculous.
(07-25-2021, 11:44 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]No, Powell always took the bigger player on D so KP COULD roam and protect the rim. That's why I always said Powell sucks in that role cause bigger players abused him. KP's mobility is back, he'll have a full offseason to work on his body and game and be back to where he was. There is no degenerative issue.
There is plenty of hope for having good defense, with a good defensive scheme and players that can/will actually execute it. If we continue to get one way offensive players, there is no hope for a good defense regardless of how mobile and good KP is. It's a very symbiotic relationship and you can't have 1 without the other. KP is a good roaming rim protector. He's plenty mobile and has a good feel for D and rim protection. Just need the players. He had an off year.
I know you guys have all watched other players have off years and come back as good or better than ever, not sure why you keep pushing the narrative that this is what he is at 25 years old. Starting to get ridiculous.
I think you just saved my life. I might have committed Mavs fan seppuku if we entered next season with KP on roster before reading this. I still agree more with Ross, but I might be willing to wait and see.
(07-25-2021, 12:04 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I think you just saved my life. I might have committed Mavs fan seppuku if we entered next season with KP on roster before reading this. I still agree more with Ross, but I might be willing to wait and see.
So, I haven't tried to wade into this muck that people keep heaping on to KP for a while now, but the gall of people to watch the NBA for years on end and not see what I said and just write him off as a 25 year old who "is what he is" player is really triggering for me. I don't know for sure that he won't come back and suck, but I think the odds of that are so very slim that it's worth typing what I typed.
My 2 hesitancies with KP is the seeming inevitability that he will get hurt again and that he is a great start to the season player (like Parsons was) but as the season wears on, he gets less and less effective. If he figures those two things out, he is for sure a superstar in my mind.
(07-25-2021, 12:22 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So, I haven't tried to wade into this muck that people keep heaping on to KP for a while now, but the gall of people to watch the NBA for years on end and not see what I said and just write him off as a 25 year old who "is what he is" player is really triggering for me. I don't know for sure that he won't come back and suck, but I think the odds of that are so very slim that it's worth typing what I typed.
My 2 hesitancies with KP is the seeming inevitability that he will get hurt again and that he is a great start to the season player (like Parsons was) but as the season wears on, he gets less and less effective. If he figures those two things out, he is for sure a superstar in my mind.
I am not on sell KP at all costs island, at all.
But I think the biggest thing that reduced his productivity was when teams realized that you just have to go small against him. He can't punish smaller guys on offense and (of course) can't guard a guard or wing on the other side and can't afford to stay near the paint protecting the rim because that guy will shoot it (same thing happened to Gobert). I don't think Clippers were the only ones who successfuly implemented that strategy. From the top of my head I remember Boston game where RC chose to rather sit KP because Boston went small ball. I am sure there was more. I am not sure it was only RC inability to utilize KP and that Kidd will dance in with a magic stick making everything different. I think it is more on KP.
That's why I think his defense is not the biggest issue - he will be just fine when his task will be to guard a non shooting big. But he must be able to force the opponent to put such a guy on the floor.
(07-25-2021, 12:44 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]I am not on sell KP at all costs island, at all.
But I think the biggest thing that reduced his productivity was when teams realized that you just have to go small against him. He can't punish smaller guys on offense and (of course) can't guard a guard or wing on the other side and can't afford to stay near the paint protecting the rim because that guy will shoot it (same thing happened to Gobert). I don't think Clippers were the only ones who successfuly implemented that strategy. From the top of my head I remember Boston game where RC chose to rather sit KP because Boston went small ball. I am sure there was more. I am not sure it was only RC inability to utilize KP and that Kidd will dance in with a magic stick making everything different. I think it is more on KP.
That's why I think his defense is not the biggest issue - he will be just fine when his task will be to guard a non shooting big. But he must be able to force the opponent to put such a guy on the floor.
This is the symbiotic relationship I was talking about. There is a way to make it work, it may be threading a needle hard, but there is a way. Might have to be more of a hybrid zone type D where when he does find the ability to roam he needs to call it out so his teammates can cover his man a bit more.
I would much prefer losing to the other team by them hitting 3's than making layup after layup. At least there is a better chance that we can do what we need to on our offensive end to stay in it and that they will miss 3's (to me). This year we were giving up 3's AND layups!
(07-25-2021, 11:31 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]he seems just more hesitant than hampered to me
I have been banging the drum that his D issue is between the ears, not in his legs.
(07-25-2021, 10:29 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Last year Powell played with KP (KP as a PF) and his D was closer to what he did in NY. This year with Maxi (KP as C) KP's D was much less than desired.
I don't agree with this.
I think you're correct about the positional changes above
offensively, but I think KP was the defensive 5 in both situations.
He was simply better the year before last than he was this past year (though I don't think the difference was as significant as people claim).
(07-25-2021, 01:48 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't agree with this.
I think you're correct about the positional changes above offensively, but I think KP was the defensive 5 in both situations.
He was simply better the year before last than he was this past year (though I don't think the difference was as significant as people claim).
Not with how many times I watched Powell getting backed down for an easy bucket and pushed around for rebound positioning.
Any interest in Siakam? I think he could be a nice small ball center for the Mavs.
(07-25-2021, 04:13 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Not with how many times I watched Powell getting backed down for an easy bucket and pushed around for rebound positioning.
That's just matchups, though. Regardless of position, good teams will force mismatches (through lineups, motion that forces switches or both) to try to get what they want.
For that matter, it's ludicrous to suggest that playing Porzingis at a different position will result in less targeting of him in the pick and roll. Regardless of what position he plays, that's going to be how teams attack the Mavs when he's on the floor unless he gets better at handling it. Probably even after that, unless he improves to the point where there's a more enticing way to attack them.
If you put him next to a center who's better at that, I think you'll see that center end up standing in the corner, wondering whether or not to leave a shooter while KP gets worked just like he did all of this past season.
There's no scheme to fix what he was this past year, imo. He's either better after an off-season of health, as might can be hoped, or he's literally not a usable player on defense.
(07-25-2021, 06:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's just matchups, though.
True. Powell only has problems, when the other 4/5 is a professional basketball player. All other match-ups are cool.
(07-25-2021, 05:06 PM)Bayliss Wrote: [ -> ]Any interest in Siakam? I think he could be a nice small ball center for the Mavs.
Absolutely if we can scrap together the assets
Hell pretty much anyone who's 28 and under plus a top 2 scorer on their team should be a target
Small ball center talk still scares me tho even if it's taking over. But yeah he'd amazing as that second scorer. Would take so much pressure off Luka to have at least one person who can create a shot
(07-25-2021, 07:53 PM)Jym Wrote: [ -> ]Absolutely if we can scrap together the assets
Hell pretty much anyone who's 28 and under plus a top 2 scorer on their team should be a target
Small ball center talk still scares me tho even if it's taking over. But yeah he'd amazing as that second scorer. Would take so much pressure off Luka to have at least one person who can create a shot
Yeah I would welcome any infusion of talent under 30 years old. Though I prefer Maxi as our small ball center. I seriously doubt we have anything Toronto would want for Siakam though.
(07-25-2021, 06:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That's just matchups, though. Regardless of position, good teams will force mismatches (through lineups, motion that forces switches or both) to try to get what they want.
For that matter, it's ludicrous to suggest that playing Porzingis at a different position will result in less targeting of him in the pick and roll. Regardless of what position he plays, that's going to be how teams attack the Mavs when he's on the floor unless he gets better at handling it. Probably even after that, unless he improves to the point where there's a more enticing way to attack them.
If you put him next to a center who's better at that, I think you'll see that center end up standing in the corner, wondering whether or not to leave a shooter while KP gets worked just like he did all of this past season.
There's no scheme to fix what he was this past year, imo. He's either better after an off-season of health, as might can be hoped, or he's literally not a usable player on defense.
What you just described says it doesn’t matter what position KP plays, that doesn’t matter to what we’re talking about. If teams are just going to target him anyway, and he’s always played better as a PF, why are we having this conversation?
Also, if this is always the scheme they will take to beat us, why isn’t it what they do with Gobert during the season? How is Gobert a perennial DPotY candidate or winner?
(07-25-2021, 08:43 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]If teams are just going to target him anyway, and he’s always played better as a PF, why are we having this conversation?
Not I sure I follow, sorry.
A) I disagree that he has played very much 4 here on defense, to this point (maybe in NY, not sure, but that was a while ago).
B) I certainly disagree that "he's always played better (defense) as a PF"...I think the exact opposite is true.
C) I don't believe what you have habitually claimed, that the slow 7'4" guy should be taken off of the center position on defense, where he should have a chance to contribute in theory at least, and instead played at the 4, where it's pretty easy to get matched up with guys like Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard, (literally, list any other long forward you can imagine, and I'd bet they'd routinely torch KP 1-on-1), and that this tactic will somehow help KP.
D) It doesn't matter what position you write next to his name on the lineup card. He's a big, stiff, slow guy who doesn't play hard. If he's on the floor (and playing how he played this past season) his team's defense is going to be pretty bad.
(07-25-2021, 08:48 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Also, if this is always the scheme they will take to beat us, why isn’t it what they do with Gobert during the season? How is Gobert a perennial DPotY candidate or winner?
Again, I don't understand what end you're attempting to reach here. I could be totally missing your point.
Gobert is a center. That's what I'm saying KP is, and that's where we disagree (I think?). To me, it's obvious. They're both centers, definitively.
Gobert is 10x the player KP is on defense. He moves better. He's faster. He plays harder. He's much smarter, defensively (an assumption I'm making based on what I've seen, so far). To compare the two is a stretch, imo.
AND, Gobert was, once again, made a near liability at the END of Utah's season. Now, I'm not one of the people who thinks he can't work in the playoffs, but even the most diehard Gobert supporter has to admit it gets harder for him to affect the game the way to which he's accustomed as Utah gets deeper into the playoffs. And again, he's like the BEST example of a true, defensive 5 in the NBA. That's FAR from where Porzingis is.
(07-25-2021, 09:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]even the most diehard Gobert supporter has to admit it gets harder for him to affect the game the way to which he's accustomed as Utah gets deeper into the playoffs
Yep, my position:
It becomes MUCH more difficult for Gobert to cover for the defensive sins of his teammates the deeper things go in the playoffs.
I think if Gobert had better perimeter defenders his team would be incredible defensively in the playoffs, but when his perimeter players aren't that strong, his ability to cover for them dissipates.
(07-25-2021, 09:16 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, my position:
It becomes MUCH more difficult for Gobert to cover for the defensive sins of his teammates the deeper things go in the playoffs.
I think if Gobert had better perimeter defenders his team would be incredible defensively in the playoffs, but when his perimeter players aren't that strong, his ability to cover for them dissipates.
Well...that´s just as big of a problem because he isn´t on the floor for his offense. When it comes to the inability to exploit mismatches in the paint he is on KPs level. Without the defensive impact he is a solid rim runner without any shooting range.
And it´s not like the Jazz perimeter defenders are terrible. O´Neal is one of the best wing defenders in the league. Conley has been one of the better guard defenders since he entered the league. Mitchell has the athleticism but isn´t the smartest team defender. Bogdanovic and Ingles have the brain but lack the foot speed. Overall not as good as it used to be when they still had Crowder, Rubio, Exum and Sefolosha but still above average.
(07-25-2021, 09:24 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]And it´s not like the Jazz perimeter defenders are terrible. O´Neal is one of the best wing defenders in the league. Conley has been one of the better guard defenders since he entered the league. Mitchell has the athleticism but isn´t the smartest team defender. Bogdanovic and Ingles have the brain but lack the foot speed.
I actually think O'Neal is one of the most overrated players in the league and is not a good defender. I think Mitchell is poor and so is Bogdanovic. I am not saying they have no strengths defensively or can't have moments, but overall I think they are poor perimeter defenders.
Conley is GREAT, no argument whatsoever.