MavsBoard

(08-17-2021, 09:54 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]That is my point...my post was a sarcastic response to a dumb assertion.

It depends on the type of player......

That's literally what was said in the post that you were sarcastic about

(08-17-2021, 09:54 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]That is my point...my post was a sarcastic response to a dumb assertion.

It depends on the type of player.  One isn't "less valuable" than another necessarily, it's a player by player basis.  It's in EVERY sport. 

This is an extreme example to highlight the point.  If you have a strong big running back, you run the ball, not just split him out continuously and run bubble screens when he isn't super quick and doesn't catch well.  You CERTAINLY don't do it repeatedly, and then proclaim the guy a failure because you don't get the production  you'd like to see out of him.  NO...as a coach, you run things that work, within the philosophy of how you want to try to win, that maximize players.

That's why you don't put THJ in the dunker spot and you put Dwight Powell there.  It's not even basic basketball, it's basic sports.

If a play gets someone open, then great do it.  If it's flow, then it's flow.  The point is to keep the defense off balance, so set plays mixed with flow makes more sense.  The truth is the "flow offense" is similar to the spread in football and you come to the line with 3 plays and depending on that the defense does you do that...and sometimes, you don't audible into it, the team reads it optimally or in more complex versions, you see the stand up and look to the sidelines and get the signals. 

All the same, you don't just not have a structure and run around hoping things happen.  You put players in certain spots at certain times to help the team succeed, by helping them succeed in the moment.   The truth of the matter is that the defense will eventually catch up to "flow" (unless they just keep basically legislatiing defense out of the game)...as it will to the all wing, positionless basketball and it will come back around again in some sort of resurgence in the cycle goes again.

"Dumb assertion". Probably one of the least insulting things you have said in regards to me or my posts in the last few weeks. I take it as a compliment.
I did not negate anything you are saying right now. Just disagree on KPs role. You are still acting like no one ever tried to run those kind of plays for KP (you just saw the highlights of him in that role and celebrated them). The Knicks did and just like in the mentioned game the results were not pretty. To go along with your example. Run things that work. Don´t put THJ in the dunkers spot. Don´t have Powell at the 3-point line. Don´t put KP into midrange iso or post up situations. That´s all the same to me. Might be worth it to waste 1-2 possessions per game like this to keep the defense honest but that´s it.
I am not against set plays (even though I think @"KillerLeft"  is right. Modern defensive schemes have a counter for most of them). Call horns sets for KP and another big. Let KP pop to the 3-point line. Run THJ around offball screens. Or to name my favorit. Run spain pick and roll.
The shown Knicks plays create midrange or post up opportunities. Could be an option for the Mavs. But not for KP. Would try to call them for Luka or Brunson. Guard post up or midrange iso.

(08-17-2021, 10:15 AM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...09191?s=21

Perfect. This should tell us quite a bit about where KP and the new Mavs additions are to start the season. 

In theory, Porzingis is exactly the type of center who should negate Gobert on both ends of the court. Maybe negate is too strong, but he should be able to pull Gobert out of the paint on defense and on offense, he should be big, strong and quick enough to defend the various permutations of the pick and roll. 

The last time I remember these teams matching up, only one of those two players looked like a max player. Just hanging and looking like he belongs on the court with Gobert would make me feel a lot better.

(08-17-2021, 09:47 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think those things you said are what he said 

1)  My obvious contention is that I believe KP was the successful plays in that highlight reel was off proper plays run for him as one of our top options offensively.

2)  He said you run plays for Dirk and Embiid, not players like KP or Markannen. "Completly understand why a team would run plays like this for Dirk, Durant or Embiid. But not for Markkanen or KP."

3)  So KP is not one of our top players offensively?

You can't say "you shouldn't run plays for KP" which was his point and believe that you should do to get your top options open with your structure on the floor AND believe that KP is one of our top options...and to that third statement, as this team is constructed, I call bull crap.

We can all talk the metric ground game of "league efficiency", but the reality is that if you don't have that, and we don't, we have to take the best option available.  That's just common sense. 

Past Luka, who are all the better options we should run plays?  THJ?  Yeah, some nights... Brunson?  Some nights, but consistently KP is in the top 2 or 3 of our options the majority of the time...so it's foolish not to maximize what he can do, especially when our offense struggles past Luka.

If KP is one of our top players offensively (the rest of the league doesn't play for the Mavs), and I contend that he is, then my statement is the opposite of what he said.  Because his assertion is either that KP is not a top option of the options that we have on our team, which I disagree...he's top 3 every night, and top 2 most nights OR you don't run plays for him.

And you know why the Knicks were so bad that year?  Because they look like us when Luka is off the floor... the leading scorers in that game were Micheal Beasley (off the bench), KP and Courtney freakin Lee...  If you want to live off of iso ball with Jalen "never saw anyone open like me" Brunson as your non-Luka option, go right ahead. 

Until KP is gone, or unseated by bringing in a better option, he is the other viable option, so whatever it takes, you run, because Luka can't score 100 points a night. 

As great as he is, he just can't.  Dude, when my other car isn't available or is in the shop or to not put 50,000 miles on it a year, I wouldn't want to drive a lime green Yugo that smells like cheese to work either, but it beats walking, a 2.5 hour bus trip and it beats not even getting there and losing my job.  I can cry about the second car or I can make every adjustment to maximize it while I deal with it until I get a different one.  Just sitting it in the driveway and complaining about it, doesn't get me to work either.

(08-17-2021, 10:19 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Perfect. This should tell us quite a bit about where KP and the new Mavs additions are to start the season. 

In theory, Porzingis is exactly the type of center who should negate Gobert on both ends of the court. Maybe negate is too strong, but he should be able to pull Gobert out of the paint on defense and on offense, he should be big, strong and quick enough to defend the various permutations of the pick and roll. 

The last time I remember these teams matching up, only one of those two players looked like a max player. Just hanging and looking like he belongs on the court with Gobert would make me feel a lot better.

I think KP missed the last matchup. Jazz put Gobert on DFS. Worked in the first half but ended with a career high from DFS and a Mavs win. For me that game was the nail in the coffin for any lineup that involves bigs that cannot guard the perimeter.
Mavs won with a small lineup. Melli and Kleber starting (both played 30+ minutes) and Powell of the bench. In the previous games the Jazz rained 3s on the Mavs. Spammed high pick and roll with Gobert and just fired away. That did not work against a switchable front court.

(08-17-2021, 10:28 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]I think KP missed the last matchup. Jazz put Gobert on DFS. Worked in the first half but ended with a career high from DFS and a Mavs win. For me that game was the nail in the coffin for any lineup that involves bigs that cannot guard the perimeter.
Mavs won with a small lineup. Melli and Kleber starting (both played 30+ minutes) and Powell of the bench. In the previous games the Jazz rained 3s on the Mavs. Spammed high pick and roll with Gobert and just fired away. That did not work against a switchable front court.

Yeah, I remember that one, too. I was talking about the last one he DIDN'T miss. If I remember correctly, the Gobert pick and roll destroyed the Mavs in the game I'm talking about.

(08-17-2021, 10:24 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]If KP is one of our top players offensively (the rest of the league doesn't play for the Mavs), and I contend that he is, then my statement is the opposite of what he said.  Because his assertion is either that KP is not a top option of the options that we have on our team, which I disagree...he's top 3 every night, and top 2 most nights OR you don't run plays for him.

And you know why the Knicks were so bad that year?  Because they look like us when Luka is off the floor... the leading scorers in that game were Micheal Beasley (off the bench), KP and Courtney freakin Lee...  If you want to live off of iso ball with Jalen "never saw anyone open like me" Brunson as your non-Luka option, go right ahead. 

Bingo. I take my chances with Brunson and THJ over KP. Last season both had more success as creators than KP.
KP is a valuable part of the offense but I see him as a finisher. Not a creator. Catch and shoot, cuts, easy points in the paints. If play calls can get him a few clean looks from 3 or dunks/layups in the paint I am all for it. Maybe we will see a completly new KP next season but based on everything I have seen from him in the past (including the Knicks seasons) I don´t think of him as a top 3 creator on this team.

(08-17-2021, 10:40 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]KP is a valuable part of the offense but I see him as a finisher. Not a creator. Catch and shoot, cuts, easy points in the paints. If play calls can get him a few clean looks from 3 or dunks/layups in the paint I am all for it. Maybe we will see a completly new KP next season but based on everything I have seen from him in the past (including the Knicks seasons) I don´t think of him as a top 3 creator on this team.

Which is fine, even on a max, if he's the defender we all thought he'd be. Bigs who must be respected at the 3pt line are super valuable, imo, even if they aren't creative/iso scorers. But, a max contract for a guy who can't create offense for himself, or others, and who is a negative on defense? That's a big, big problem, imo.

(08-17-2021, 09:58 AM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]That's literally what was said in the post that you were sarcastic about

I took it as a flat comment on levels of players that you run plays for.  Embiid, Dirk are completely different level cosmically than KP and LM, but in the Mavs universe, we don't have the luxury to compare our players simply to every player across the league, we have to compare them...in the micro...to the ones we can actually put on the court. 

If we need 30-40 points on the court when Luka isn't out there or we have to have a total of 18-20 or more from 1 or 2 guys to win, and we don't have a guy that we can just give the ball at the top of the key and clear out, letting him go one-on-one repeatedly successfully, then we have to look at our best options, and the best plays to get them the ball in the best spots for them to be successful.

My point is yes, the type of player, but the levels have to be determined by what we have, not "either he's elite or we don't run plays for him".

(08-17-2021, 10:40 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Bingo. I take my chances with Brunson and THJ over KP. Last season both had more success as creators than KP.
KP is a valuable part of the offense but I see him as a finisher. Not a creator. Catch and shoot, cuts, easy points in the paints. If play calls can get him a few clean looks from 3 or dunks/layups in the paint I am all for it. Maybe we will see a completly new KP next season but based on everything I have seen from him in the past (including the Knicks seasons) I don´t think of him as a top 3 creator on this team.

Why are you arguing with me if that's what you think?  That was my point the whole time.  As I have pointed out all year, there are plays to get him clean looks that we just ARENT' running.  And that was what I was pointing out in the video.

(08-17-2021, 11:04 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]Why are you arguing with me if that's what you think?  That was my point the whole time.  As I have pointed out all year, there are plays to get him clean looks that we just ARENT' running.  And that was what I was pointing out in the video.

Because the play calls in the video featured him in the midrange/ellbow area. Not catch and shoot but iso or post up. Your post also highlighted the post ups the Knicks created for him. Anything that features KP with the ball in his hands in midrange/ellbow/post up situations is close to the bottom of my play calling list for the Mavs.
And going back to killerleft´s point. It is not as easy as you might think to create open shots with set plays. That´s why most (if not all) teams are running some kind of flow offense these days. Still part of the game but not nearly as frequent as they used to be.

Not to mention that I always question highlight tapes. Fun to watch and useful when we are talking about unknown players (prospects, internationals) but in KPs case we have all seen him in those situations. We know that he missed more shots than he made in the mentioned game. What would you do if I simply showed you all the shots he missed?

I'm greedy...I want to keep Maxi as he is a solid rotational piece and a great culture guy as well.  He may be on the downslope but he still has value and if you can get him in a 20-24 minute role he probably looks even better.  A guy like Lauri is the type of player that reduces Maxi's role.

Picking up LM for the TPE plus a sweetener and then waiting for the Dragic buyout or the ability to aggregate would give the Mavs a pretty solid rotation.

KP - LM - WCS - Bobi
DFS - Maxi 
Bullock - Brown
THJ - Brunson - Green/Terry
Luka - Dragic - DSJ/Frank

Powell, Burke, M. Brown, Green/Terry, TPE outgoing in the moves for LM and Dragic.  Sign DSJ/Frank and hold the last roster spot unless there is a big wing out there that fits at the vet min.

One other question that has probably been addressed...with the Bulls clearly in win now mode does Reddick do anything for them?  Could a package of a SnT JJ plus Green/Terry and/or 2nd rounder entice them, allowing Mavs to keep their TPE for that last roster spot in season?

KP's efficiency to me (this is anecdotal), in my watching him, comes when you put him in post up situations with loads of options.  For example, the dribble dribble backdown situation, it's NOT a good look.  I think he does fine in a quick post, quick shot situation.  For example, cross screen, low block, turn baseline, jump hook.  He looks good in that, but it doesn't get run.  I can recall one time last season this happened.  I'm fine with the baseline turnaround.

One of the plays I referenced in my post was a screen down by the guard with a roll to the basket down the middle of the lane.  The other was a quick post thing.  My point was that while we used basically ONE way to get him into a position this last year and it wasn't very successful, there are many ways to get him the ball, on time, in a good space, and we were just using one bad one.  It was so bad that, at times, it made you wonder if they were trying to make him fail, so he wouldn't want to do it any more.  That could have been it, I guess, but it's sounds crazy.

(08-17-2021, 12:22 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://www.mavs.com/partnership-profitx/

I certainly hope this isn't the only thing they use in their decision making. Doesn't this give them less of a competitive advantage in negotiations? If a team can figure out what this projection tells the Mavs, they then know how much the Mavs want their player in trade negotiations, right? It's at least a place to start figuring it out and with the amount of money that's involved in these transactions, it would behoove teams to know that information at all costs.

(08-17-2021, 12:35 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I certainly hope this isn't the only thing they use in their decision making. Doesn't this give them less of a competitive advantage in negotiations? If a team can figure out what this projection tells the Mavs, they then know how much the Mavs want their player in trade negotiations, right? It's at least a place to start figuring it out and with the amount of money that's involved in these transactions, it would behoove teams to know that information at all costs

In a general sense paying a player exactly his worth is a GOOD thing. A contract too small can be an issue with player contentment and with trade matching, underpaying a player by a lot is not really a good thing long term. A contract too big...well we know all about that. 

Sure, we want the Mavs to get "team friendly" deals from time to time, but most importantly we want the Mavs paying player what they are actually worth IMO.

(08-17-2021, 08:29 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]@"DanSchwartzgan" talk to me about these numbers. The PNR ones in particular. Like @"dirkfansince1998" I have seen LM's PNR numbers be below average. Where did you find these exactly?

BBall Index.  You have to be careful of the exact data you are looking at.  His total “Roll Man Impact” is a pedestrian 48th percentile.  But, that includes rolling, popping and slipping.  As I said, he’s 88th percentile in terms of his impact rolling to the basket and 13th and 12th percentile in “rolling” into a Pick and Pop or “rolling” into a screen Slip.  His Roll/Pop/Slip splits are 43%, 39% and 7%.  So he’s doing too much of the things he’s not good at and not enough of the things he is good at in the PNR in terms of his overall impact (yet he’s still in the 88th percentile).  

By contrast, Maxi is in the 93rd percentile in total “Roll Man Impact”.  He’s terrible at rolling to the basket…25th percentile (but he only does that 13% of the time he’s in the PNR).  He pick and pops 60% of the time and is in the 97th percentile on those (so he does more of what he’s good at and less of what he’s not).  

IF you look at them on the various compilation metrics, Maxi and LM are two sides of a coin.  LM is much better offensively…much.  Maxi is much better defensively…much.

(08-17-2021, 09:23 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Beauty of highlights. KP needed 24 FGA to score 24pts. Missed all of his FTs. 46.6% TS, 5 tov. Responsible for half of Markkanen´s points because he did not defend the 3-point line.

Obviously highlights don't show the ugly parts.

My point is more in the way KP was moving and defensive activity in the lane (4 blocks?). We haven't seen much of that guy since he came back from the first knee injury, which is what everyone thought DAL was trading for. 

If that's a starting point, I think Luka's skills and somebody like LM, or even Kleber, to keep the defense honest could help KP find his role and make everybody forget about last season.

Latest article from a person who has sources in Chicago...

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/bulls/...ng-pattern