(08-05-2021, 01:10 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]"Dragic and Duffy allowing him to get stuck at a place he doesn’t want to be with a team that doesn’t want him"
This may be a bit strong on how much leverage Dragic and Duffy have had in this situation. They agreed to the contract in 2020, and now it's played out like it was written (as a potential trade chip where Dragic gets traded somewhere as a big expiring contract). That didn't come with any control over what might happen after he landed elsewhere.
Now he's elsewhere, and it's at least partly on him, if he doesn't like the outcome, to negotiate (not demand) the situation to be one he likes better.
"I just can’t see Toronto falling on that sword just to win the fight. It does them no good to have someone there who clearly doesn’t want to be there."
I think your sword was the idea of "forcing him to stay" and while that's one way to see it, that they shouldn't force him to be there, we have to look at if from other angles as well. Isn't the idea of "pay me in full, and then release me" incredibly unreasonable for Dragic to adopt, if he REALLY doesn't want to be in TOR? What is he offering to give up, if he wants to be elsewhere?
For TOR, it might be about desires, but the actions of "offering to give something up" (and how much) is also relevant. We don't know if Dragic is offering anything back, nor do we know if the Mavs are willing to pay anything more than the minimum, and those have an impact on the equation.
MMG made a good point when he said that "Just makes no sense to give up assets unless it's just Powell and garbage which Toronto won't likely do." I can envision that when TOR first got Dragic, they made some calls to see if they could move him elsewhere, and the Mavs expressed some interest, but in light of the $19M contract, the Mavs reasonably wanted to be compensated to take that contract.
I see moving a Powell-Burke package as compensation of a sort. But what if the Mavs actually think those guys are plus value to keep? Then how do the Mavs get compensated for taking on GD at $19M in a way that also entices TOR? It's harder than you think.
For example, in the least impactful idea I can imagine, say Mavs offer Redick snt and ask for a 2nd rounder from TOR along with GD. In essence, Mavs are eating a ton of bad salary for just a 2nd. And for TOR, they are only reducing their outlay by $5M and it costs them a 2nd. I don't think anyone likes that deal. As a result, I think it's possible the trade angle died fairly quickly, because it was too hard for anyone to find value in a $19M GD year, or the trade equivalent.
Which brings us back to the start of this post. It might be up to Dragic to fix it somehow - take some "free money" from TOR that's less than the $19M and that he doesn't have to work for, and then find a new deal somewhere else.
Thanks, my post was probably not as nuanced as it should have been. You have added a lot of clarity here. I think you probably have the right of it, but the thing that is eating at me is that I just feel like Dragic has reached the point in his career where teams treat him with a higher level of respect.
I guess what I believed is that even Miami would want to see him land in a good spot, and so I assumed that Dallas had been semi-involved in (3-way) discussions at various points of the Lowry situation with Miami/Toronto, and NOT just after it became clear that deal was happening.
I really believed this was just a matter of tweaking some minor details and not something that could fall apart, so I’m on the verge of major disappointment.
I’ll get over it.
(08-05-2021, 03:26 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I haven't thought this was about "because Luka will be VERY unhappy". If you doubt that motive, then I'm there with you.
Also, I'm not in the camp that would say the Mavs must get Dragic "whatever it costs". And I think the idea that "not Dragic" would be attached to "failure" is because it looks like "not Dragic" might mean that the Mavs are done updating the roster. So the failure would be settling for just Bullock/Brown/Moses as the offseason get.
Yes, that makes more sense, if I understand what you're saying.
It's the failure to get a new secondary playmaker at all, rather than a failure to get Dragic in particular.
(08-05-2021, 04:00 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]No...my fail...your set up was perfect, just like the pitch of your voice while yelling "GOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAL"
If Mavsluvr is (obviously) Mark Followill, and he had a perfect setup that you missed, then does that mean you're...Derek Harper??
(08-05-2021, 03:29 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]It seems like if any team is in a box, it's Toronto. They're the ones who agreed to take on an old backup guard on a wildly inflated salary, and are now scrambling to find a way out of it. There are lots of playmaking guards out there who are as good as/better than Dragic, and the Mavs will find one. At worst, it won't be in the offseason. But Toronto is stuck with Dragic if they can't find a way to make a deal that works for the other team involved.
Agree with the above.
Agree that it’s smart not to let go of too much because “we have to get Dragic.”
But I’m of the opinion that they had to get a player LIKE Dragic, and that this player would probably start, and that Dragic seems to be the last of several such players they targeted. The last who I’d view as an upgrade to last year’s team, to be honest.
I’ve never been a “just do something” guy, but I can’t wrap my head around going into the season with LESS ball-handling and play-making than they had last season. I really, truly can’t.
(08-05-2021, 04:16 PM)Jmaciscool Wrote: [ -> ]If Mavsluvr is (obviously) Mark Followill, and he had a perfect setup that you missed, then does that mean you're...Derek Harper??
yes, that would seem to the the logical conclusion, except that...
I'm actually Jon Stefansson from Iceland. I was the 15th man for the Mavs back in 2003, hence the name
EDIT
I'd just like to apologize to everyone. My response to Jmac's joke wasn't funny at all. My PER (Poster Efficiency Rating) is horrible.
(08-05-2021, 04:16 PM)Jmaciscool Wrote: [ -> ]If Mavsluvr is (obviously) Mark Followill, and he had a perfect setup that you missed, then does that mean you're...Derek Harper??
Haha.
I shouldn't laugh about shots at my boy Harp, but, I guess I will, lol.
(08-05-2021, 03:43 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]It seems to me that there are all sorts of playmaking guards in the NBA (or otherwise eligible to play in the NBA) who are as good as/better than Dragic.
I don’t know, my guy. He’s pretty high on my list of “non all-stars” tbh. I feel like I can guarantee that the next target, if in fact there is one, will be a significant drop off.
I’d almost put Dragic on the level of Lowry/Conley…almost. At least, I would have in the bubble playoffs, when I watched every Heat game from the 2nd round on. He would help this team a TON, imo.
After reading the last couple pages of the thread, I would agree with what others have said that 1) our new playmaker doesn't have to be Dragic, but on the other hand, 2) if not him, who? Looks to me like the only player left on the FA board who would be adequate is Jackson, and that's going to entail a separate move or two to make happen (i.e. the pivot to operating under-the-cap).
I mean, look - we all know that Brunson is pretty decent at generating his own shot, but we've also seen that he's iffy at getting teammates involved. He's not good enough for the role he's filling right now. All of the best teams in the league have at least two players whose presence makes you guard them. We've also seen that the Mavs have fallen apart catastrophically without Luka on the floor. I know there's all of the calls for Luka to improve his conditioning, but even if he becomes the world's most fit athlete, no player in the league is expected to carry a team for 48 minutes a game. We need an additional player who can 1) create his own shot, and 2) get his other teammates involved. I don't know how good Dragic is at 1) at this stage of his career, but he's far better than anything else we have aside from Luka at 2). I see him as a placeholder for until this FFO gets their poop together.
Then there's the issue of placating Luka. After what's happened on the FA front these past four days, dynamically placating him is a team need. We're skating on thin ice. ML, with all due respect, I was disappointed with your post about the issue of Luka wanting Dragic vs. Luka demanding Dragic. At this point, the NMBT would be gravely foolish to regard anything worded as the former as not having the weight of the latter. If Luka wants Dragic, make it so.
I will admit that if Toronto is demanding Brunson, DFS, or a future first for Dragic, they're off their rocker, and all of us would be pretty furious with that if it happened. But if the Mavs aren't going to get Dragic, by buyout or trade, they'd better scramble for plan Z real darn quick. To go into next season without another playmaker is to punt the season - if they haven't already done so by not achieving enough this offseason.
(08-05-2021, 04:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t know, my guy. He’s pretty high on my list of “non all-stars” tbh. I feel like I can guarantee that the next target, if in fact there is one, will be a significant drop off.
I’d almost put Dragic on the level of Lowry/Conley…almost. At least, I would have in the bubble playoffs, when I watched every Heat game from the 2nd round on. He would help this team a TON, imo.
One possibilty would be to get the playmaking from a wing, which would help Luka lineups and Brunson lineups
(08-05-2021, 04:29 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]One possibilty would be to get the playmaking from a wing, which would help Luka lineups and Brunson lineups
Great, but who?
I’m actually wishing they’d landed DeRozan right now, which is something I never thought I’d type.
(08-05-2021, 04:18 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Agree with the above.
Agree that it’s smart not to let go of too much because “we have to get Dragic.”
But I’m of the opinion that they had to get a player LIKE Dragic, and that this player would probably start, and that Dragic seems to be the last of several such players they targeted. The last who I’d view as an upgrade to last year’s team, to be honest.
I’ve never been a “just do something” guy, but I can’t wrap my head around going into the season with LESS ball-handling and play-making than they had last season. I really, truly can’t.
Hey, KL, have enjoyed reading your free agency posts.
I had actually cherished a small hope that they might get someone better than Dragic, whom I view as just this side of okay, even for a reasonable salary. Do you see Goran as a starter? I could be wrong, and am open to being corrected, if so.
Regarding your last paragraph, I feel your pain.
If the scenario where Dragic works out a buyout while taking less than the $19.4M plays out (and the Mavs are planning to give him all or part of the MLE)… the Bullock sign-and-trade into the TPE probably needs to happen tomorrow. The Knicks are using cap space to sign their free agents.
(08-05-2021, 04:32 PM)VintagePejav2 Wrote: [ -> ]If the scenario where Dragic works out a buyout while taking less than the $19.4M plays out (and the Mavs are planning to give him all or part of the MLE)… the Bullock sign-and-trade into the TPE probably needs to happen tomorrow. The Knicks are using cap space to sign their free agents.
Yep, pressure's on. One of the dead worst things that happened in these dire team-building years since the KP trade was that the Mavs made the absolutely inexplicable move of signing KP the first day they could, wiping out their cap room. I would be surprised if THJ isn't signed tomorrow, wiping out the possibility of operating under the cap. If they don't do something this evening, or early tomorrow morning, the offseason is likely officially effed.
(08-05-2021, 04:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t know, my guy. He’s pretty high on my list of “non all-stars” tbh. I feel like I can guarantee that the next target, if in fact there is one, will be a significant drop off.
I’d almost put Dragic on the level of Lowry/Conley…almost. At least, I would have in the bubble playoffs, when I watched every Heat game from the 2nd round on. He would help this team a TON, imo.
Agree that Dragic used to be quite good. Agree that he could help the team.
It may be that I am being overly influenced by my Heat fan buds, who seem to believe that he has fallen off pretty drastically since then.
If he is truly on the level of Lowry/Conley, or almost, I don't know why anyone is complaining about his $19M salary.
(08-05-2021, 04:31 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Do you see Goran as a starter? I could be wrong, and am open to being corrected, if so.
I do. I think he’d fit in great, and if they get the Dragic from the bubble season, I think he’d be a GOOD starter.
He was removed from Miami’s starting lineup this past season because it was thought at the time that Tyler Herro was about to be an all-star. That turned out to be laughable, at least in the short term, and I believe Miami would’ve had a much better season had they not made that choice.
I absolutely think this guy has always been one of the most underrated players in the league, and I think that is still true even as he begins to decline.
I have been a fan of his for years, since before I even knew who Luka Doncic was, and this is like the third time they have teased us with the possibility of acquiring him.
Every single positive thing I have written on this forum for the past 3 to 4 days has been built on a foundation of THJ and Goran Dragic.
Seasons of the Mavs year continue. The happy crowd joins the negative nancies. Next stop summer league. Time to overhype some guys that will never make the roster.
(08-05-2021, 04:35 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]It may be that I am being overly influenced by my Heat fan buds
Eric Reid?
(08-05-2021, 04:47 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Time to overhype some guys that will never make the roster.
Uh oh. I've already given Nate Hinton some love. Did I move to the next stage too soon?
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media3.giphy.com/media/U1aN4HTfJ2SmgB2BBK/giphy.gif)