(07-25-2021, 09:03 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Not I sure I follow, sorry.
A) I disagree that he has played very much 4 here on defense, to this point (maybe in NY, not sure, but that was a while ago).
B) I certainly disagree that "he's always played better (defense) as a PF"...I think the exact opposite is true.
C) I don't believe what you have habitually claimed, that the slow 7'4" guy should be taken off of the center position on defense, where he should have a chance to contribute in theory at least, and instead played at the 4, where it's pretty easy to get matched up with guys like Lebron James, Kawhi Leonard, (literally, list any other long forward you can imagine, and I'd bet they'd routinely torch KP 1-on-1), and that this tactic will somehow help KP.
D) It doesn't matter what position you write next to his name on the lineup card. He's a big, stiff, slow guy who doesn't play hard. If he's on the floor (and playing how he played this past season) his team's defense is going to be pretty bad.
I'm not gonna recap the conversation that started between me and mvossman, then to Omahan, then to you. You can reread if you want to get on the same page.
A) So we disagree, not new.
B) The crux of this conversation, in NY he played and said he likes playing PF, here he did play PF next to Powell (on defense) and during those times he was called the unicorn.
C) You just claimed it doesn't matter what position he plays going forward doesn't matter cause offenses will target him regardless, so why does this matter. Also, he was slow and 7'4" for 1 season. You're betting he'll remain that way, I'm betting the opposite and am tired of the argument of the 25 yo "is what he is" after 1 down year.
D) It doesn't matter, if his team isn't playing well enough and the scheme doesn't fit what the players can do, the TEAM will fail on defense if they aren't on the same page. Regardless of how well 1 guy can or can't play. Putting the whole defense on 1 guy is never gonna get us anywhere. I know the guys making the decisions aren't going to do that, not sure why you would.
(07-25-2021, 09:30 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I actually think O'Neal is one of the most overrated players in the league and is not a good defender.
Would love to hear that case. He has the boxscore numbers (+1.8/+2.1/+2.2/+1.7 DBPM in the last four seasons). He has the +/- and on/off impact. He has the matchup numbers (tracking) against superstar wings. For whatever reason he is the best Kawhi stopper in the league.
(07-25-2021, 09:30 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Bogdanovic
Certainly did a better job against Kawhi than DFS or Kleber. If he is poor the Mavs do not have a single playable wing defender.
Gobert obviously played a role as well. Not possible to play agressive on ball defense without the occasional blow by but that wasn´t a big problem because the best rim protector in the league was ready to come over and help. Became a problem when the Clippers went small and played 5-out.
(07-25-2021, 09:50 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]here he did play PF next to Powell (on defense)
Nah, disagree. Strongly so.
(07-25-2021, 09:51 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]THIS KL, this.
Pretty ok point regarding Gobert, who is usually a GREAT defensive player.
I'm not sure it applies as well to KP, who was the worst defensive player on the team last year.
(07-25-2021, 09:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Gobert is 10x the player KP is on defense. He moves better. He's faster. He plays harder. He's much smarter, defensively (an assumption I'm making based on what I've seen, so far). To compare the two is a stretch, imo.
Once again, you keep saying this based on this previous year's contribution. KP, being 25 years old, still has every chance to be what Gobert is (if he continues to be an offensive threat and 20-25 ppg scorer, he probably won't make it there). As a whole (meaning going back further than this previous season), he's about 3/4ths there. That 1/4th is a big step though, to not discount what Gobert is.
So, him BEING 3/4 the player Gobert is, the rest of the team needs to be that much better on the perimeter. THEY aren't close to being what KP needs them to be as a rim protector.
(07-25-2021, 10:00 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]1) Nah, disagree. Strongly so.
2) Pretty ok point regarding Gobert, who is usually a GREAT defensive player.
3) I'm not sure it applies as well to KP, who was the worst defensive player on the team last year.
1) I strongly disagree too, so we're even.
2) KP is usually a GREAT defensive player, only reason he got the nickname unicorn.
3) Last year, last year, last year.
(07-25-2021, 10:06 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]KP is usually a GREAT defensive player, only reason he got the nickname unicorn.
Usually?
As you said, he's only 25. Even if I concede he was "great" on defense in NY (which I obviously won't, because I doubt "great" is appropriate), how long ago was that, now? And, how many years was he "great" there?
He has CERTAINLY never been "great" here on defense, though I don't think he was nearly as bad for the majority of the pandemic season as he was during this past year.
Yeah, maybe he'll get better. I can meet you halfway on that. But, "great?" Noooooooo.
I'll weigh in. Don't think KP has ever been close to Gobert defensively, but I do think KP has been pretty good minus 2021.l
Also, no way KP played PF on D with DP or MK on the floor. No way to that. Who covers big wings and PFs when KP and DP or MK are on the floor? Not KP!
(07-25-2021, 10:21 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Usually?
As you said, he's only 25. Even if I concede he was "great" on defense in NY (which I obviously won't, because I doubt "great" is appropriate), how long ago was that, now? And, how many years was he "great" there?
He has CERTAINLY never been "great" here on defense, though I don't think he was nearly as bad for the majority of the pandemic season as he was during this past year.
Yeah, maybe he'll get better. I can meet you halfway on that. But, "great?" Noooooooo.
He has been GREAT here doing what he's supposed to do, rim protection. The rest of the team wasn't what he needed as help. He was GREAT in NY. Those times he was GREAT? He was next to a guy playing against the other team's big.
(07-25-2021, 06:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]For that matter, it's ludicrous to suggest that playing Porzingis at a different position will result in less targeting of him in the pick and roll. Regardless of what position he plays, that's going to be how teams attack the Mavs when he's on the floor unless he gets better at handling it. Probably even after that, unless he improves to the point where there's a more enticing way to attack them.
Agree KP gets targeted no matter what you call him.
My team building question (forgetting O for the moment) is when a player blows by KP on the perimeter, who would you rather have meeting that player at the rim? Option one...mobile big who can block shots (thinking Holmes). Or, quicker wing defender who can cause issues (but can't block shots) and has the recovery speed to also defend the three point line (thinking DFS).
If we played KP and Holmes together, offences can only target one at a time and the other will be waiting to block a shot. We probably give up some corner 3's (which we do anyway). Having a competent big next to KP probably cuts down on regular season wear and tear. When you need more specialized lineups in the playoffs, I bet a few minutes of single-big Holmes or single-big KP would work (especially the former).
BTW, as to his time in NY, it was rare in 17/18 that KP wasn't in with either Kanter or O'Quinn. He was a PF as they were clearly centers. In 16/17 he was PF about 80% of the time playing alongside Noah, O'Quinn and Hernangomez. He did get some time a C with Anthony as the next biggest player. In 15/16 it was about 76% PF and 24% C. The Knicks were bad defensive teams in those seasons. When KP was on the floor, the Knicks were better defensively to the tune of 2.6 points in 15/16, 3.1 points in 16/17 and 5.2 points in 17/18. The more he played PF, the better the numbers got.
(07-25-2021, 10:56 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]My team building question (forgetting O for the moment) is when a player blows by KP on the perimeter, who would you rather have meeting that player at the rim? Option one...mobile big who can block shots (thinking Holmes). Or, quicker wing defender who can cause issues (but can't block shots) and has the recovery speed to also defend the three point line (thinking DFS).
Well, I think it's a slightly misleading question, because I don't think KP has to be on the perimeter to get blown by, and he's just as likely to get beaten by laying back in extreme drop coverage, but I see what you're asking, so I'll play.
Give me the guy who can cover ground in a hurry. The type of guy who can leave his man in the corner and take two steps to make the dude who just blew by KP THINK he's coming to help, but who can also recover back to that guy in the corner once the first dude makes the pass. IF that skillset comes in a package with enough length to also deter things at the rim a little, I'm all for it. But, I don't think half of the players people claim have those movement skills around here actually have them.
Prime PJ Tucker would be a good prototype, I suppose. Jerami Grant would've been perfect, imo.
(07-25-2021, 10:56 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]If we played KP and Holmes together, offences can only target one at a time and the other will be waiting to block a shot. We probably give up some corner 3's (which we do anyway). Having a competent big next to KP probably cuts down on regular season wear and tear. When you need more specialized lineups in the playoffs, I bet a few minutes of single-big Holmes or single-big KP would work (especially the former).
I buy that help defense on the interior would improve. I don't really agree that it would have an overall positive effect on winning/losing, as I think teams would find a way to get even better looks at 3's than they already do against the Mavs.
It does take ONE thing away from the opponent, though, which is an improvement. I'll agree with that.
(07-25-2021, 10:56 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]BTW, as to his time in NY, it was rare in 17/18 that KP wasn't in with either Kanter or O'Quinn. He was a PF as they were clearly centers. In 16/17 he was PF about 80% of the time playing alongside Noah, O'Quinn and Hernangomez. He did get some time a C with Anthony as the next biggest player. In 15/16 it was about 76% PF and 24% C. The Knicks were bad defensive teams in those seasons. When KP was on the floor, the Knicks were better defensively to the tune of 2.6 points in 15/16, 3.1 points in 16/17 and 5.2 points in 17/18. The more he played PF, the better the numbers got.
I buy all of this. I just think that was a different player during a different time.
(07-25-2021, 10:56 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Agree KP gets targeted no matter what you call him.
My team building question (forgetting O for the moment) is when a player blows by KP on the perimeter, who would you rather have meeting that player at the rim? Option one...mobile big who can block shots (thinking Holmes). Or, quicker wing defender who can cause issues (but can't block shots) and has the recovery speed to also defend the three point line (thinking DFS).
If we played KP and Holmes together, offences can only target one at a time and the other will be waiting to block a shot. We probably give up some corner 3's (which we do anyway). Having a competent big next to KP probably cuts down on regular season wear and tear. When you need more specialized lineups in the playoffs, I bet a few minutes of single-big Holmes or single-big KP would work (especially the former).
BTW, as to his time in NY, it was rare in 17/18 that KP wasn't in with either Kanter or O'Quinn. He was a PF as they were clearly centers. In 16/17 he was PF about 80% of the time playing alongside Noah, O'Quinn and Hernangomez. He did get some time a C with Anthony as the next biggest player. In 15/16 it was about 76% PF and 24% C. The Knicks were bad defensive teams in those seasons. When KP was on the floor, the Knicks were better defensively to the tune of 2.6 points in 15/16, 3.1 points in 16/17 and 5.2 points in 17/18. The more he played PF, the better the numbers got.
VERY key to this whole discussion and VERY undersold.
(07-25-2021, 11:16 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I buy all of this. I just think that was a different player during a different time.
Same exact player, different time, sure. The last 3 NBA champions did it in very different ways. The common theme is the team played to their strengths and dictated matchups more than their opponent.
(07-25-2021, 11:30 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]The common theme is the team played to their strengths and dictated matchups more than their opponent.
Agreed.
That's my whole point. No matter how I mentally dissect this, I can't find a way to view KP as a "strength" of this team. I have felt this way since right after the bubble playoffs. I think he is holding the team back in many ways.
If I had a second, evil head growing out of my neck, I wouldn't try fashion accessories to make it more stylish. I'd go to the doctor and get the thing removed, and "but the surgery costs too much right now - it'll be cheaper next year" wouldn't stop me. Some things just have to be done.
(07-25-2021, 11:36 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Agreed.
That's my whole point. No matter how I mentally dissect this, I can't find a way to view KP as a "strength" of this team. I have felt this way since right after the bubble playoffs. I think he is holding the team back in many ways.
If I had a second, evil head growing out of my neck, I wouldn't try fashion accessories to make it more stylish. I'd go to the doctor and get the thing removed, and "but the surgery costs too much right now - it'll be cheaper next year" wouldn't stop me. Some things just have to be done.
I just want you and anyone that thinks this way to know there is opposition to this thought. I'm not as vocal about it, but the more you trigger me by typing this, the closer I get to this point of discussion about it.
It's also, not that I want KP here any more than you do, seriously. The reasons for me, though, are so much more limited than yours.
(07-25-2021, 10:56 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Agree KP gets targeted no matter what you call him.
My team building question (forgetting O for the moment) is when a player blows by KP on the perimeter, who would you rather have meeting that player at the rim? Option one...mobile big who can block shots (thinking Holmes). Or, quicker wing defender who can cause issues (but can't block shots) and has the recovery speed to also defend the three point line (thinking DFS).
If we played KP and Holmes together, offences can only target one at a time and the other will be waiting to block a shot. We probably give up some corner 3's (which we do anyway). Having a competent big next to KP probably cuts down on regular season wear and tear. When you need more specialized lineups in the playoffs, I bet a few minutes of single-big Holmes or single-big KP would work (especially the former).
BTW, as to his time in NY, it was rare in 17/18 that KP wasn't in with either Kanter or O'Quinn. He was a PF as they were clearly centers. In 16/17 he was PF about 80% of the time playing alongside Noah, O'Quinn and Hernangomez. He did get some time a C with Anthony as the next biggest player. In 15/16 it was about 76% PF and 24% C. The Knicks were bad defensive teams in those seasons. When KP was on the floor, the Knicks were better defensively to the tune of 2.6 points in 15/16, 3.1 points in 16/17 and 5.2 points in 17/18. The more he played PF, the better the numbers got.
How many 5 out offenses did NY face back in 17/18? So the plan is to leave one guy wide open on the perimeter, and let another guy smoke one of our centers on the perimeter, but at least they won't have free run to the hoop? Can Holmes punish smaller defenders? (we already know KP can't). It's hard not to see this as turning KP into a poor defensive stretch 4, basically a Markkanen (who got pushed to bench in Chicago). If that is our plan, I would much rather dump KP for whatever we can and use that cap on players who better fit with Luka.
And now that I have told you how to trigger me, here it comes...
(07-25-2021, 11:42 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I just want you and anyone that thinks this way to know there is opposition to this thought.
Haha, I'm well aware. I would say I'm still in the minority on this, though not as much so as when I first started the good fight.
(07-25-2021, 11:42 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not as vocal about it, but the more you trigger me by typing this, the closer I get to this point of discussion about it.
I know EXACTLY what you mean by this, and just know that I suffer the same way with certain topics. I'm not aiming to put you in those feelings, I hope you know.
(07-25-2021, 11:42 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]It's also, not that I want KP here any more than you do, seriously. The reasons for me, though, are so much more limited than yours.
I know, my dude.
Could we have a full list of IGT and KL topics that they can't resist please? :-)