(10-21-2021, 12:00 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]I also find it remarkable that Bob’s word parsing seems to be given credence in the article and in your post. When Luka asks who is in charge, Rick or Bob, it is not an adequate response to say, “It’s not me, it’s my data.” Neither is it adequate to point to the org chart and say “I’m just a consultant.” Pointing to several recent occasions on which Rick disregarded Bob’s advice (er, Bob’s data’s advice) might be persuasive. But the bald assertion that RC declined “some” suggestions is no denial.
And I don’t blame the reporters for publishing this shit. Like Geico, if you’re an internet reporter, it’s what you do. I only blame them for lacking analytical skills and the wherewithal to write an interesting piece that is actually about the game.
For those of you who made it this far, thanks for listening to an old man’s rant.
Always happy to receive your input, jb.
I personally agree that I would have preferred a basketball analysis piece. However, it is very possible (and even likely) that a front-office piece will get way more views than a good X's and O's presentation. I was recently reading someone on one of the media sites lamenting that they couldn't do more articles analyzing the games because there is a much smaller audience for that than for examinations of other aspects of the operation.
I didn't perceive anything in the article or my summary that particularly gave credence to Bob's views, other than the fact of reporting his views at all perhaps indicating that they were worth hearing. With respect to his recommendations, I thought he was pretty clear that he thought he was providing input to Rick that Rick was free to use or disregard as he saw fit. Rick may or may not have felt internal pressure to accept Bob's recommendations. He suggests that people may have perceived that he had more power than he did, because of his unique access to Cuban. Seems like there was a case of inadequate communication and lines of authority all around. Is it more complicated than that?
If McMahon had published an interview with Cuban's neighbor complaining that he won't keep his yard weeded, I would find it offensive as a non-basketball piece. However, the operation of the team organization gets to the heart of how the team functions, and I don't see it as somehow off limits.
I am not saying that Bob, or anyone else, is right or wrong. Honestly, I'm not even sure why this article is perceived as particularly offensive jourrnalistically, since it is mostly incremental to what had already been reported. However, it seems perfectly reasonable not to like it, and I respect that feeling and even share it to a degree.
I think where we might have a point of disagreement is the view that McMahon/ESPN have some sort of animus toward Cuban or the Mavs organization, and are using their megaphones to try to destroy them. I actually think these guys are just out there trying to make a living, like the rest of us.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
I think all of this makes Cuban look the worst. He seemed to run the franchise like a startup and his management style like a moth attracted to light. Hopefully the new GM installs some discipline in all levels of basketball operations and Cuban lets them follow a plan.
I think a lot of times we think of the home run trade we can pull off when in reality we have to focus on singles and doubles. Sometimes those singles and doubles overperform. I look at the moves the past few years and we were all over the place. Delon Wright is a solid player but was not the type of player to play with Luka. Wes Iwundu was a penny stock but it took him a few weeks to realize he wasn't the guy. Compare that to a similar investment in Sterling Brown and that appears to be a much better fit in how we play....we will see though. James Johnson just wasn't the right guy. ETC.
I really hope the new leadership follows a strategy of Memphis. Pick up Kyle Anderson. Acquire and develop Dillon Brooks. Make a small trade for DeAnthony MelTon. Get Grayson Allen thrown into a trade. Hit your non lottery draft picks. Some of these moves are really small but they just have been making smart moves to build around their franchise player.
(10-21-2021, 11:51 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]McMahon gas lighting the Mavs on opening day is no surprise to me anymore...
That´s what journalists were supposed to do in the past. Discover and report stories from all angles. Nowadays they are just unpaid PR managers. I like that McMahon has at least a little integrity, which already makes him stand out as an instigator amongst the Townsends, Prices, Skips and Broussards of the world. Can´t tell me that nobody from the local Mavs reporters had heard any rumours about all the sh*t happening on the business side for over a decade and couldn´t have started to poke the bear years ago.
(10-21-2021, 01:01 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I think all of this makes Cuban look the worst.
I disagree. It makes Cuban look bad, don't get me wrong, because he let all this happen on his watch. BUT I think Donnie comes out of this looking the worst. It makes him look...
1) Juvenile.
2) Defensive.
3) Insecure.
4) Disorganized.
5) Inept.
6) Completely out of control.
The dude was the PRESIDENT of Basketball Operations and all this happened in the organization HE was supposed to be organizing, supervising, and running. Cuban has been so busy doing other things, there is no logical way to have expected him to run the Mavs organization as well on the kind of level it needed. Sure, Cuban was throwing his inputs in (like hiring Bob) and making final calls on stuff, but Cuban had Donnie in place to take care of all the things that fell apart in total disarray.
I think loyalty, relationship, and the idea of them being "family" got in the way for Cuban and he should have cut ties with Donnie LONG, LONG ago.
(10-21-2021, 12:38 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Always happy to receive your input, jb.
I personally agree that I would have preferred a basketball analysis piece. However, it is very possible (and even likely) that a front-office piece will get way more views than a good X's and O's presentation. I was recently reading someone on one of the media sites lamenting that they couldn't do more articles analyzing the games because there is a much smaller audience for that than for examinations of other aspects of the operation.
I didn't perceive anything in the article or my summary that particularly gave credence to Bob's views, other than the fact of reporting his views at all perhaps indicating that they were worth hearing. With respect to his recommendations, I thought he was pretty clear that he thought he was providing input to Rick that Rick was free to use or disregard as he saw fit. Rick may or may not have felt internal pressure to accept Bob's recommendations. He suggests that people may have perceived that he had more power than he did, because of his unique access to Cuban. Seems like there was a case of inadequate communication and lines of authority all around. Is it more complicated than that?
If McMahon had published an interview with Cuban's neighbor complaining that he won't keep his yard weeded, I would find it offensive as a non-basketball piece. However, the operation of the team organization gets to the heart of how the team functions, and I don't see it as somehow off limits.
I am not saying that Bob, or anyone else, is right or wrong. Honestly, I'm not even sure why this article is perceived as particularly offensive jourrnalistically, since it is mostly incremental to what had already been reported. However, it seems perfectly reasonable not to like it, and I respect that feeling and even share it to a degree.
I think where we might have a point of disagreement is the view that McMahon/ESPN have some sort of animus toward Cuban or the Mavs organization, and are using their megaphones to try to destroy them. I actually think these guys are just out there trying to make a living, like the rest of us.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts!
Again with the moderate, reasonable positions. You are sooooooo bad at picking fights!
Not saying McMahon has an agenda. But I think I remember reading others argue quite credibly that he does. These days my memory stinks though. So I won’t take issue with your position on that.
Do think the article, in its opening-day feature position, deserves an eye roll. And its authors. May not be their fault that they are writing a gossip column rather than reporting on and analyzing sports. But seems like they should own it once they’ve signed it.
I feel the same way about sports talk radio, which now includes silly top 10s and the latest celebrity offenses to space out the 3 minutes of actual sports crammed into every hour of broadcast. Guess I’m just turning into a whiny old man.
The DMN has a piece today on Luka not hating KP so much that he intends to freeze him out of the offense. Sportscasting.com has a piece featuring Luka’s admission that he needs to control his on-court zebra complaints. Congrats to both of them for appealing to the apparently small audience interested in the actual game. Looking fw to seeing if both things (passing to KP and non complaining) show up on the court. Not looking fw to Skin’s pregame discussion of Haralabob’s interview.
(10-21-2021, 01:10 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I disagree. It makes Cuban look bad, don't get me wrong, because he let all this happen on his watch. BUT I think Donnie comes out of this looking the worst. It makes him look...
1) Juvenile.
2) Defensive.
3) Insecure.
4) Disorganized.
5) Inept.
6) Completely out of control.
The dude was the PRESIDENT of Basketball Operations and all this happened in the organization HE was supposed to be organizing, supervising, and running. Cuban has been so busy doing other things, there is no logical way to have expected him to run the Mavs organization as well on the kind of level it needed. Sure, Cuban was throwing his inputs in (like hiring Bob) and making final calls on stuff, but Cuban had Donnie in place to take care of all the things that fell apart in total disarray.
I think loyalty, relationship, and the idea of them being "family" got in the way for Cuban and he should have cut ties with Donnie LONG, LONG ago.
This is such a good take. I think there is value in loyalty and that "family" atmosphere in the organization. But Cuban should have given him a big hug/kiss and told Donnie, "I know it was you, Donnie! You broke my heart." Donnie sold out this org for longevity in his position. These ongoing exposes aren't a surprise as much as they are explanatory of events that we all witnessed and didn't know exactly why they were happening. Hopefully, the Mavs move forward with higher standards and expectations of results. Good leaders want strong people around them. If anything, I feel better about Cuban's actions here bringing in Bob's voice to shake things up. At least it brought things to a head and the org can move forward instead of floundering in mediocrity. And make no mistake, the Mavs FO has become mediocre. I loved the statement that no Mavs execs or FO personnel were getting hired anywhere else in the league. Of course they weren't. Because Donnie didn't want to be exposed. It doesn't make Bob a hero in this story, but I am grateful that Donnie is out. I think RC is a great coach, but he is a different gen and this team needed a new voice. So, good for the Mavs. Moving forward.
I've always been a Donnie-fan, at least as far as his talent identification. Always thought that he knew his stuff. However, had it been me, I'd have followed Nellie out the door, back in the day. No matter who was right or wrong in that situation, I'd have had my own father's back, and I'm not sure I wouldn't have punched Mark in the mouth on the way out the door, on general principals. Donnie's conduct, then, showed me that he prioritized his job over everything else. I presumed he had talked it over with Nellie and decided not to let emotion affect his money, but...still. I think that showed a certain amount of disfunction with Donnie. Showed a lack of personal loyalty. So, Donnie being one who protects his job over all else? Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
(10-21-2021, 01:01 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I think all of this makes Cuban look the worst. He seemed to run the franchise like a startup and his management style like a moth attracted to light. Hopefully the new GM installs some discipline in all levels of basketball operations and Cuban lets them follow a plan.
I think a lot of times we think of the home run trade we can pull off when in reality we have to focus on singles and doubles. Sometimes those singles and doubles overperform. I look at the moves the past few years and we were all over the place. Delon Wright is a solid player but was not the type of player to play with Luka. Wes Iwundu was a penny stock but it took him a few weeks to realize he wasn't the guy. Compare that to a similar investment in Sterling Brown and that appears to be a much better fit in how we play....we will see though. James Johnson just wasn't the right guy. ETC.
I really hope the new leadership follows a strategy of Memphis. Pick up Kyle Anderson. Acquire and develop Dillon Brooks. Make a small trade for DeAnthony MelTon. Get Grayson Allen thrown into a trade. Hit your non lottery draft picks. Some of these moves are really small but they just have been making smart moves to build around their franchise player.
The "new management" in regards to personnel moves is something I find intriguing.
Apparently, Nico's relevant expertise is on the organizational and management side, and even sympathetic press acknowledges that he has no experience in the draft, roster construction, trades, and other such aspects of the business. Those are evidently areas of expertise you don't master in a few weeks' time, and hopefully he will grow into the job.
I agree with you that the front office strategy on roster construction has seemingly been lacking for a while now. However, as far as we are aware, no one with any level of experience in these critical fields has been added to the team. Being a shoe executive does not directly translate.
I suspect this is not an accident. From my own experience, directors looking for a new executive who also want to keep their hands on the wheel, will look for someone who is a little under-qualified for the position. Someone younger than you would expect for the position, or someone from a related field who doesn't have direct experience. That type of person is less likely to want to import his own agenda and way of doing things, and less likely to resist being micromanaged.
If Cuban is, as a practical matter, still the GM where such matters are concerned, I'm not sure how much of a change in philosophy we can expect. I, like you, will be hoping for at least some updating of their approach, but we'll have to see.
^ good points as always
They brought in a guy that knows nothing about being a NBA GM and suddenly most of the fan base is buying that things are fixed. To me, it seems an awful lot like the Cynthia Marshall hire. Let’s give someone else this title so the heat is off Mark Cuban. It’s hilarious how they keep parading her out at press conferences like she OKd the Kidd hire.
Bob just started talking about this stuff in public the last two days. Of course any journalist/organization would release a story when it’s likely to get the most views. Talk about shooting the messenger.
Bob said he didn’t even know he was going to be running the draft until it was time for the draft. And Donnie was pissed. Who else could possibly make these decisions than Cuban?
(10-21-2021, 02:44 PM)wmffl87 Wrote: [ -> ]They brought in a guy that knows nothing about being a NBA GM and suddenly most of the fan base is buying that things are fixed. To me, it seems an awful lot like the Cynthia Marshall hire. Let’s give someone else this title so the heat is off Mark Cuban.
I fear this may be the phenomenon we are witnessing. Hope we turn out to be wrong!
(10-21-2021, 02:44 PM)wmffl87 Wrote: [ -> ]Bob just started talking about this stuff in public the last two days.
Didn't he make a bunch of posts right around the time it was announced he wouldn't be back?
Opening night is supposed to be all about the promise and potential of a new season. Add in new players, new coaches, new philosophies and you'd think there would be plenty to write about. There has been plenty of time to throw all that mud over the summer and there will be more time during a looong season.
I agree with criticism of the timing. Trying to be different enough to get noticed in the blizzard of sports reporting out there is understandable, but this feels like a demonstration of independence. McMahon saying "I'll say what I want, when I want about the Mavs."
Personally, I'd ice him out for a few weeks if I was the PR Director. Or make sure Woj or Shams got first word of the next personnel move.
See, JB is not the only one with old guy rants today!
Icing out the press never seems to end well. I would instead divulge some real basketball news in an exclusive to whomever is ESPN’s biggest competitor.
(10-21-2021, 02:01 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]Being a shoe executive does not directly translate.
LOL. I'm going to start keeping a tally of how often "shoe salesmen" is mentioned when you talk about Nico. :-)
(10-21-2021, 02:44 PM)wmffl87 Wrote: [ -> ]They brought in a guy that knows nothing about being a NBA GM and suddenly most of the fan base is buying that things are fixed. To me, it seems an awful lot like the Cynthia Marshall hire. Let’s give someone else this title so the heat is off Mark Cuban. It’s hilarious how they keep parading her out at press conferences like she OKd the Kidd hire.
Dog gone. This is Eeyore level pessimism!
I don't know whether Nico will do well, but I'll give him a chance. He's done well enough at other stops that I don't see a reason not to give him a chance. And I like some things he's done so far. The proof either way will be in the results. But one thing is for sure. He's been successful enough in business that he doesn't need someone to "give him a title".
Regarding Cynthia Marshall, I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about. Cuban let his business office culture become toxic. Cynthia Marshall was an established executive who specialized in workplace culture. What's to criticize there? Kill Mark if you want to for letting things get so bad, but why be a jerk about the qualified CEO that he hired, who by all accounts, has actually fixed the mess that had developed in the business office.
And what's with the "parading her around" talk? She is the CEO of the Dallas Mavericks. She doesn't need parading. I'm sure she goes where she needs to go to perform her duties as CEO.
(10-21-2021, 02:49 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I fear this may be the phenomenon we are witnessing.
Et to Brute?
You agree with Eeyore that two execs who were highly successful before they came to the Mavs are just being "given titles" and "paraded around"?
I’m with Fif on this.
To those who disagree, do you know the owner of the Dallas Mavericks? His name is Mark Cuban, and he’ll do it how he wants to do it.
Time will tell if Nico gets enough say to move this team up the rankings. Being pessimistic about this offseason hires is like making a post that the Lakers are done after 1 game into the season! It may be true, but way too early to say.
(10-21-2021, 04:31 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I’m with Fif on this.
To those who disagree, do you know the owner of the Dallas Mavericks? His name is Mark Cuban, and he’ll do it how he wants to do it.
Time will tell if Nico gets enough say to move this team up the rankings. Being pessimistic about this offseason hires is like making a post that the Lakers are done after 1 game into the season! It may be true, but way too early to say.
Who would jump to that ridiculous conclusion? Oh wait, was that me?
In my defense, you don’t get any cred for calling it after they’ve lost their first 15. Once it’s fact, it’s kind of boring to say.
Same is true of the Nico criticism. Let them call their shots. Nobody woulda been impressed if Babe Ruth had waited till it cleared the centerfield wall before pointing in that direction.
(10-21-2021, 04:44 PM)Jommybone Wrote: [ -> ]Who would jump to that ridiculous conclusion? Oh wait, was that me?
In my defense, you don’t get any cred for calling it after they’ve lost their first 15. Once it’s fact, it’s kind of boring to say.
Same is true of the Nico criticism. Let them call their shots. Nobody woulda been impressed if Babe Ruth had waited till it cleared the centerfield wall before pointing in that direction.
Fair enough. Calling it out first is one thing, being so married to it that you rant on about it is another.
Look at us. Stupid McMahon has us demonizing the old regime AND the new one!
(10-21-2021, 05:03 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Fair enough. Calling it out first is one thing, being so married to it that you rant on about it is another.
Look at us. Stupid McMahon has us demonizing the old regime AND the new one!
Both regimes way, way better than
1. Kings
2. Hornets
3. Bulls
4. Magic
5. Cavs
6. Current Celtics
7. Sixers
So there’s that.
Cannot believe after cleaning up the business side of the team and having zero complaints Marshall gets posts like that on a Mavs discussion board...
In my opinion she was the perfect hire and one of the few decisions Cuban made correctly...the Mavs would be a better team if Cuban made more smart moves like that...