MavsBoard

(01-17-2022, 01:48 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting take on THJ. I guess I always thought of him as great 6th man option….but he is not a creator as you suggest which one of the usual characteristics of that role. He is a volume shooter and can score in bunches which is what I was looking at. 

Yeah, he can fill it up, no question. But, only when playing off of someone else. 

Carlisle used him like Duncan Robinson, and I think he was making a lot of good things happen with his gravity in that role. Kidd seems to want him to be Michael Finley (not a perfect comp but the best one I can think of off the top, sorry) and that doesn't seem to have gone so well, to this point. 

I like the green light to attack closeouts off the dribble and pull up from mid-range for Luka and Brunson (and Burke, if we're even counting him). I have not really enjoyed that from Hardaway this year, and it seems to be something they're trying to implement more and more. In his, specific case, I personally miss the the old "pump fake and sidestep...find a way to make the shot a 3."

(01-17-2022, 01:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with your POV, overall. 

I've said this I don't know how many times, but I just don't think Hardaway is a bench player type. There is a tendency to look at these guys and arrange them according to some type of made up "overall rating" and make sure the top 5 overall scores are the starters, and while I can understand the desire to make sense of the roster, I just don't think it works that way. 

Hardaway doesn't strike me as a 6th man, like at all. He's not an offensive creator, which is what every historically great 6th man brings to the table. Brunson? Sure, he'd be great in that role, if he's happy with it. A dream fit, actually. Obviously, he's up and coming and that might not be an option available to the Mavs at this point. It might be "start him or trade him" time. 

But for Hardaway, I think he's a starter, and much more worth his contract in a high-minute, offensively featured role (one that's focused on creating shot opportunities for him like last season's Mavs offense). If they've determined (and I'm not sure they have - I think they're experimenting) that he's not going to be that here, then I think it's really important he's moved ASAP. I'm one of Hardaway's biggest fans, but I'm not excited in the least to watch him come off of the bench. I don't think he'll ever be successful in that role.

I agree with all of this, including they have not determined anything yet.  What I do think is that if they decide they are going to keep Brunson and pay what he will cost, its going to be in the starting lineup, and I don't see a starting lineup with Luka/Brunson/THJ working defensively (as many folks here have pointed out).  I think the team defense really took off when one of THJ or Luka was out of the starting lineup and I don't see that pattern changing.

So agreeing with your premise, it seems that they really need to trade one of Brunson or THJ at the TDL.  Interestingly enough, that would also be the most straightforward route to getting under the tax for next year.

(01-17-2022, 01:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Hardaway doesn't strike me as a 6th man, like at all.

You could be right. THJ probably should start, if not here, then somewhere. Of course, this could also partly justify trading offense for defense in the form of Brunson for Turner.

(01-17-2022, 01:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with all of this, including they have not determined anything yet.  What I do think is that if they decide they are going to keep Brunson and pay what he will cost, its going to be in the starting lineup, and I don't see a starting lineup with Luka/Brunson/THJ working defensively (as many folks here have pointed out).  I think the team defense really took off when one of THJ or Luka was out of the starting lineup and I don't see that pattern changing.

So agreeing with your premise, it seems that they really need to trade one of Brunson or THJ at the TDL.  Interestingly enough, that would also be the most straightforward route to getting under the tax for next year.

I'm pretty much on board with all of this. Well-articulated, as usual.

(01-17-2022, 01:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]it seems that they really need to trade one of Brunson or THJ at the TDL.

Spot on.

(01-17-2022, 01:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with your POV, overall. 

I've said this I don't know how many times, but I just don't think Hardaway is a bench player type. There is a tendency to look at these guys and arrange them according to some type of made up "overall rating" and make sure the top 5 overall scores are the starters, and while I can understand the desire to make sense of the roster, I just don't think it works that way. 

Hardaway doesn't strike me as a 6th man, like at all. He's not an offensive creator, which is what every historically great 6th man brings to the table. Brunson? Sure, he'd be great in that role, if he's happy with it. A dream fit, actually. Obviously, he's up and coming and that might not be an option available to the Mavs at this point. It might be "start him or trade him" time. 

But for Hardaway, I think he's a starter, and much more worth his contract in a high-minute, offensively featured role (one that's focused on creating shot opportunities for him like last season's Mavs offense). If they've determined (and I'm not sure they have - I think they're experimenting) that he's not going to be that here, then I think it's really important he's moved ASAP. I'm one of Hardaway's biggest fans, but I'm not excited in the least to watch him come off of the bench. I don't think he'll ever be successful in that role.

The issue is Kidd favoring defense. I don't think that there's any debate that THJ is greatly inferior defensively to all of the above of DFS, Bullock, Green, Sterling Brown, and Ntilikina (that's ***five*** freaking alternatives!!!), and having both him and Luka in the starting lineup is a major defensive problem if you want your team's identity to be defensive (as Kidd clearly does). Brunson is less problematic since he's learned the JJB trick (6th in the league in charges drawn). I just don't think there's a place for him on this team with Kidd as the head coach, and the latter seems to be a successful thing. I think they need to cut bait on the guy. The thing is, you don't trade him for an expirer (for example) just in order to sign JB unless you're 100% that JB is willing to stay for that money. I would imagine that, if THJ is moved on from for the sake of retaining Brunson, it's likely to be at the draft, attached to our pick.

(01-17-2022, 01:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with all of this, including they have not determined anything yet.  What I do think is that if they decide they are going to keep Brunson and pay what he will cost, its going to be in the starting lineup, and I don't see a starting lineup with Luka/Brunson/THJ working defensively (as many folks here have pointed out).  I think the team defense really took off when one of THJ or Luka was out of the starting lineup and I don't see that pattern changing.

So agreeing with your premise, it seems that they really need to trade one of Brunson or THJ at the TDL.  Interestingly enough, that would also be the most straightforward route to getting under the tax for next year.

Agree, and IMO Brunson is 10x the player that THJ is. Far more more consistent. A lot more worth. Luka-Brunson just play well together when DFS is at SF. Agree that THJ is just not a fit. Also the eye test just shows THJ playing out of the style of team offense. Taking quick shots and not distributing the ball further.

(01-17-2022, 02:48 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Luka-Brunson just play well together

I don't think they've played badly together, as the +/- seems to suggest, and I don't think they've had enough time together yet, especially in this new offense, for us to make a decision yet, honestly.

...but I'm not sure my eye test evaluation of the pairing has reached the same conclusion as yours. They might fit great, given time to adjust, but I see a ton of shots created by one for the other that simply aren't being taken. I think there's a catch-and-shoot element missing from those lineups, so far. The good news is that both Luka and Brunson CAN shoot off the catch. It's just that neither is accustomed to doing so...yet, I hope. 

This is an extremely interesting crossroads for the Mavs, imho. What they do next will be make or break, possibly.

(01-17-2022, 01:29 PM)vfromlmf Wrote: [ -> ]  Good example is the last game. He nailed two threes in a row so he jacked up a wild ass heat check three that had no chance.

This. IMO it told us he's lost his team focus, and is more worried about how he can get his. Which is  going to put a very low ceiling on his usefulness.

(01-17-2022, 01:10 PM)Davemo Wrote: [ -> ]Test post.

Goal Post

(01-17-2022, 02:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't think they've played badly together, as the +/- seems to suggest, and I don't think they've had enough time together yet, especially in this new offense, for us to make a decision yet, honestly.

...but I'm not sure my eye test evaluation of the pairing has reached the same conclusion as yours. They might fit great, given time to adjust, but I see a ton of shots created by one for the other that simply aren't being taken. I think there's a catch-and-shoot element missing from those lineups, so far. The good news is that both Luka and Brunson CAN shoot off the catch. It's just that neither is accustomed to doing so...yet, I hope. 

This is an extremely interesting crossroads for the Mavs, imho. What they do next will be make or break, possibly.

+/- seems to be great, as long as THJ is not in lineup. Depends which of the myriad +/- one chooses to look at. Makes sense in many ways also with the eye test, as THJ tends to take those quick contested jumpshots and then it (almost) doesnt matter if Luka and Brunson are in the lineup or someone else.

I mainly noticed the cooperativity to enter the paint. Not so much on catch and shoot, there hasnt been much of that indeed as you mention. I dont think thats going to be the real strength of the pairing of Luka and Brunson, although as you write there is potential for that as well.

To me it appears that when they both are in, its much harder to double each of them. Then its becoming increasingly clear to me that when Luka operates and draws defenders, and the ball then ends to Brunson either directly from Luka or through another teammate, then Brunson has a much easier path to the paint, than he would have had otherwise. With time defenses will learn to respect Brunson when Luka is in, and this will draw less defenders on Luka.

Before in time (without Brunson next to Luka), the extra space Luka created by drawing defenders was always used as an improvement in time we had to take that outside 3 pt shot. However, with Brunson in the lineup, he tends to use this extra space by penetration and driving to the paint where he scores much more efficiently than we ever did from 3 (besides maybe when we had Curry and in the games where he couldnt miss from 3). This new concept has given our offense a new dimension IMO.

I will keep en eye on those plays and how Brunson uses that extra space. IMO he should just attack the paint when given the chance. Not settle for that open 3 as catch and shoot (that is up to DFS and Maxi etc. to exploit the extra space in this manner as they dont have the skills in paint as Brunson does).

Finally, finally, we are also able to take some plays on offense, without Lukas involvement. We never saw that before. Brunson can lead the attack on some plays with Luka taking a short break (and same time acts as decoy). And the offense still dangerous. We will see if that could improve Lukas long term stamina, defense etc. Its exhausting to play defense after being the one that carries the ball up the court every single time. No wonder he cant breathe at some points. I think Lukas defense has improved a lot recently.

(01-17-2022, 03:55 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]I mainly noticed the cooperativity to enter the paint. Not so much on catch and shoot, there hasnt been much of that indeed as you mention. I dont think thats going to be the real strength of the pairing of Luka and Brunson, although as you write there is potential for that as well.

To me it appears that when they both are in, its much harder to double each of them.

I'm with you on the above. In theory, playing them together makes the team's ball-handling and offensive creation much more similar to that of the teams we see doing well in the playoffs and much less predictable or easy to contain. Might just take some time for them to find a rhythm together, but I'm sure we're all game to see it play out. 

I just want Brunson to shoot when he's open, that's all, and lately he has shown an odd reluctance to do so, as if he thinks it's "settling" or something. It's not settling if there isn't a defender within 6 feet of you and the space is created by someone else's penetration. To have multiple ball-handlers work together well, they also need to be willing play finishers. I'm sure they'll get it worked out.

(01-17-2022, 05:22 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]In theory, playing them together makes the team's ball-handling and offensive creation much more similar to that of the teams we see doing well in the playoffs and much less predictable or easy to contain.

I just want Brunson to shoot when he's open, that's all, and lately he has shown an odd reluctance to do so, as if he thinks it's "settling" or something.

Amazing points KL. I agree, the old format of 4 spacers and Luka iso is really predictable. Me and even my daughter knows what's going to happen. Luka will attack the paint and score, and if doubled pass it out, and Maxi/KP/DFS/THJ they will shoot. It works, but in playoffs, defenses are much better directing at which player that will go to, and finding the one that is shooting least well at that given moment, and since they know where it will go it gives them some chances to adapt to it.

This thing with Brunson entering that paint with that space is super unpredictable. He is elite in finishing there once he enters the paint. He is great in passing it further in case the defense collapses on him.

Well noticed with the reluctance to shoot lately from Brunson. I think it correlates with him entering the paint more now with being with Luka in lineup. I think he has found out that the split second he has more of time now with the ball arriving to him after Luka passes to him (or Luka-other player-then Brunson), gives Brunson that little edge to attack the paint, as his defender arrives a step slower now, and that Brunson can literally almost now every time enter the paint. He keeps using that to great success. To me this is the cooperativity with Luka and Brunson. If you look at Brunson when he leads the point of attack against a well set defender from the first moment, then he has harder time to enter the paint. Unless he gets a great screen. But amazing thing with Brunson once he is there, he excels with his footwork and shooting. Unbeleivable!

And amazing point with Brunson shooting. If he keeps using the space Luka provides by attacking paint, sooner or later, the defenses will not keep collapsing on him, and just wait in the paint for him. The above only works as long as Brunson can keep defenses honest with his 3pt shot. Cant forget about it and he needs to catch and shoot at least once or twice in the game.

KL, I had a play in mind from recent games shown below, but I've noticed it many times this thing. 1) Luka creates space either directly or indirectly, 2) Brunson exploits the space through penetration, 3) Brunson excels in paint. (And when THJ is in, he totally destroys that opportunity IMO while DFS doesnt). 









I just love to see the space Luka creates being used in different ways than pure shooting. And when we have seen Brunson attacking the paint, and then passing it further out from the paint, the ball movement has been amazing. I agree this stuff is hard to scheme for. But once in a while Brunson needs to catch and shoot that situation to keep that defender coming at him.

P.S. The above is why i believe Sabonis would lift this team to new dimensions. As Brunson and Luka -  Sabonis can also shoot, drive, pass, almost as an PG, all three skills including screens. The number of plays where this above is seen would significantly increase, to a number of easy baskets and unpredictable offense for defenses to deal with in playoffs. Instead of one-two, we would see this as one-two-three. Luka-Brunson-Sabonis could then be paired with two limited shooters in Maxi and DFS, players that can shoot but not at the same level drive and pass. We would both get both the spacing, but also this cooperative penetration and ball movement.

Great points in this thread, especially by KL.

I find the idea burkemde brought up interesting (Luka, JB, Sabonis), it makes a ton of sense, offensively. 

But: How good (or bad) is Sabonis on defense? I think the past has clearly shown us that Luka needs at least 3 very competent defensive players next to him. With a minus-defender like JB (due to size), this is even more the case.

I don't know enough about Sabonis do judge, but if he is not at the very least solid on D, this won't work.

(01-18-2022, 07:40 AM)meistermatze Wrote: [ -> ]Great points in this thread, especially by KL.

I find the idea burkemde brought up interesting (Luka, JB, Sabonis), it makes a ton of sense, offensively. 

But: How good (or bad) is Sabonis on defense? I think the past has clearly shown us that Luka needs at least 3 very competent defensive players next to him. With a minus-defender like JB (due to size), this is even more the case.

I don't know enough about Sabonis do judge, but if he is not at the very least solid on D, this won't work.

I have paid more attention what he does on offensive side how amazing fit that would be with Luka and Brunson. On defensive side he seems as a really great rebounder, provides the effort and great positioning. I havent seen any great rim protection from Sabonis, this is not his strong point. He needs to be paired with someone that can protect the rim regularly, someone like Maxi. Also not the best perimeter defender, although I think he is solid in this regard and moves well enough not to be a liability. Again, good to pair with someone like Maxi. Sabonis would fit with Maxi on defenisve (and offensive) side. IMO. Overall, Sabonis seems as solid defender, not great. If we trade for Sabonis, keeping Maxi would be a good idea. Sabonis would provide more movement on defense than KP but less in rim protection.

@"burekemde" I thought Brunson did a much better job of shooting when the ball found him open last night. The shots didn't drop, but that's not the point. When you pass up those great, no-brainer looks, the chances that you'll create another one late in the clock after allowing the defense to recover plummet significantly, imo. 

His penetration and in-between games were once again stellar, of course. They always are!

(01-18-2022, 09:45 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"burekemde" I thought Brunson did a much better job of shooting when the ball found him open last night. The shots didn't drop, but that's not the point. When you pass up those great, no-brainer looks, the chances that you'll create another one late in the clock after allowing the defense to recover plummet significantly, imo. 

His penetration and in-between games were once again stellar, of course. They always are!

KL, I agree, Brunson was better at mixing it up last game. Although in few instances Brunson hesitated, neither shoot nor penetrated but it was minority of plays. Penetration/paint was top notch as usual. Outside shots didnt go in, but we know he can make them and cant be let alone long term wise. Needs to keep shooting, it will come. For both him and Luka. Its impressive that they both arent shooting well from 3 now, but we are really good on offense and win. It shows how well Luka and Brunson are in creating space for our mid range and paint shots and for others. Once they starting shooting well from outside, this offense should explode. I believe Luka-Brunson had a terrific game together again and outscored opponents when in.

EDIT: Skills-wise, Luka-Brunson is maybe the best guard tandem in the NBA. Maybe even just in general the best tandem. We will see towards the playoffs.

https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/...12359?s=20

I feel like I've checked everywhere on the board and haven't seen this posted yet so apologies if this has already been discussed but this seems to put a fork in the Myles Turner talk officially.  And more importantly, (hopefully) putting an end to the DFS trade talk as well.

---

Really hope we start hearing Hardaway rumors soon.  Specifically about him being paired with picks and being shipped to Detroit for Jerami Grant....

At this point you have to see what DFS and Brunson can give this team in a playoff run, they're simply too important to gamble the continuity that we have.  Obviously my opinion but this team is definitely looking like a top 5 or 6 squad the past month or so and the last time we took a team where the roster was playing better on the floor than we thought on paper, we ended up with Rondo....

I like most of this guy's content, particularly his Celtics videos. It's pretty interesting how serious outside NBA observers view the Mavs, imo.

https://youtu.be/HTjD6XgaM-s