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Am I the only one ready to just hunker down and give Luka/Richardson a chance? 

I mean, I’m not opposed to trades, but I’m kind of focused on the 3/4 positions, at this point, and this is coming from someone who loved the idea of both Kemba and Rubio. 

To me, Richardson’s ball-handling has been better than advertised. To me, this Oladipo, Hield, CJ and Kemba talk is sort of not a reflection of the current situation.

Mix in one more player with some playmaking, either at the 3 or the 4, and I think they’ve got something. If that player is in his mid-20’s, I think you sit down and just let the team mature together, like a fine wine.

EDIT: I’ll go a step further and say I’m ready to live with Luka, Richardson, DFS, ____, KP for a while. So I guess for me it’s about finding a Middleton, Collins, Isaac, Siakim type. Not sure who it would be.

(12-28-2020, 04:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Am I the only one ready to just hunker down and give Luka/Richardson a chance? 

No.

I am trying to get all the members of Team Patient to look around the room and notice each other. @"khaled1987" is with us. @"fifteenth" is with us. There are many of us.

(12-28-2020, 04:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Am I the only one ready to just hunker down and give Luka/Richardson a chance? 

No one is saying we should trade them

(12-28-2020, 04:45 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, I’m not opposed to trades, but I’m kind of focused on the 3/4 positions, at this point, and this is coming from someone who loved the idea of both Kemba and Rubio. 

With Luka size you can easily integrate another guard. You would be replacing THJ anyway. Dan put it very nice. It is actually Luka that is playing PF, not DFS.

(12-28-2020, 04:52 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]No one is saying we should trade them


With Luka size you can easily integrate another guard. You would be replacing THJ anyway. Dan put it very nice. It is actually Luka that is playing PF, not DFS.

I agree that you CAN integrate another guard, and have made that point before. Numerous times. I have 0 problem understanding Dan’s points, and made similar points back when I was on the Rubio wagon. 

What I’m saying NOW is that I’ve actually seen enough of Richardson’s ball-handling to have me wondering whether they SHOULD add another guard. I don’t think they need to, necessarily.

I’m currently leaning towards adding more size, rather than more guards. Just my opinion, and I was previously in the add another guard camp. To be fair, for a CJ level guy, I suppose you’d have to alter any plan.

(12-28-2020, 04:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree that you CAN integrate another guard, and have made that point before. Numerous times. I have 0 problem understanding Dan’s points, and made similar points back when I was on the Rubio wagon. 

What I’m saying NOW is that I’ve actually seen enough of Richardson’s ball-handling to have me wondering whether they SHOULD add another guard. I don’t think they need to, necessarily.

I’m currently leaning towards adding more size, rather than more guards. Just my opinion, and I was previously in the add another guard camp. To be fair, for a CJ level guy, I suppose you’d have to alter any plan.

Trades will not happen before TDL anyway. I think the trade "NOW" is taken way too literally. So there will be plenty of games to really judge the team. Not on a small sample of two bad games and one blowout victory. I am actually affraid about potential consequences of this victory, like thinking they are better then they actually are. It was not just Mavs being good (they were), but it was also Clippers having a total off night. They couldn't buy a bucket even when totally open. 

JRich was great against Clippers (but so was everyone else) but not so much against Phoenix and Lakers so it is way too early for me to draw any conclusions. But even if he is able to create, does it really hurt to bring another one? It is just that it is much easier to find players at that guard spot than at big wing one. I mean, which big wing is realistically available and you like? Tobias Harris? Barnes? Griffin or Love? All vastly overpaid, 2 of them zero on defense. Gordon doesn't really convince me he would be a fit, I have very mixed emotions about him. Collins would certainly be a very intriguing option but I don't think we have the assets. On the other hand we have LaVine, Oladipo, Hield, Fournier (6th man), OPJ as very likely available options which all have manageable contracts and could perhaps be available for Johnson and assets. I am not even necessarily trying to "upgrade" THJ but Johnson contract, who is certainly extremely overpaid but expiring.

I am just convinced a trade should and will happen as it makes no sense to either: 
- let Johnson and THJ go, to resign one THJ similar player in FA (we will not have more cap space after we resign JRich) or
- resign both of them without improving the team.

It makes way more sense to stay over the cap and add a vet for MLE. And if we want to actually get a better player, we will most likely have to include a young player or pick.

JRich isn't gong anywhere short of a crazy opportunity arising. I fall somewhere between team patient and team we-need-to-make-a-move. That's why names like Dipo, Turner and OPJ haven't interested me. Those guys could very well be slight upgrades, but you it's not the type of players I'm going to throw any assets at. Mavs do their best work around the TDL. Maybe we should call it Team Opportunistic.

Untouchable: Luka, KP, JRich
I'd hate to see you go: DFS
Players that have some value: Maxi, Brunson, Green, Terry
Most likely to be traded: THJ (Voulgaris on staff makes me think there is no chance he is here next year)
Least likely to be traded: Powell (contract + he is loved by the organziation)
Salary Matcher: Johnson
Throw ins: WCS, Boban, Iwundu, Burke
I don't want to break Kamm's heart: Bey

I know his name has been thrown around a lot and I'm still slightly against it, but Blake Griffin just feels like a MBT move.

(12-28-2020, 04:59 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]NOW is that I’ve actually seen enough of Richardson’s ball-handling to have me wondering whether they SHOULD add another guard.

The Mavs absolutely need another playmaking guard if you go with the premise that Luka's long term position is less like JKidd and more like Lebron. That is, unless you're happy with Burke getting crunch time minutes. 

JRich is a fantastic off-guard who can do a little of everything, including make plays for others. I'm confident in saying he's the 3rd best player on the team. But JRich is not a lead guard who will run the offense for long stretches. 

The Mavs will be their most dangerous when KP is at Center and Luka takes on a Lebron-like role as point forward.

JRich could be the long term solution as a two-way guard ... and I don't hate DFS as the 3&D wing.

That leaves what I think the priority should be: landing an elite lead guard ... the next DWade or Kyrie Irving would be pretty sweet.

TBD on JRich but I dont think he's a good enough creator to where you only look at 3&D guys like OPJ or Tucker.  I'm also not a big Brunson guy like some are.  It can be argued that recently unemployed Trey Burke is in the conversation for our second best offense creator.  The Mavs probably need one more dynamic offensive player.

(12-28-2020, 05:38 PM)jesusshuttlesworth82 Wrote: [ -> ]TBD on JRich but I dont think he's a good enough creator to where you only look at guys like OPJ or Tucker.  I think the Mavs probably need one more dynamic offensive player.

I agree. 100%. Right there with you. 

BUT, he IS better at handling than I expected. So, I’m thinking the playmaker doesn’t HAVE to be a guard.

(12-28-2020, 05:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree. 100%. Right there with you. 

BUT, he IS better at handling than I expected. So, I’m thinking the playmaker doesn’t HAVE to be a guard.

Yeah, he's greatly exceeded my expectation in creating his own shot.  He seems pretty crafty when driving to the mid-range or paint.  My only criticism of him so far has been some of his 3PT shot selection but with how everyone is jacking up threes, it must be part of the game plan.

(12-28-2020, 05:41 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]BUT, he IS better at handling than I expected. So, I’m thinking the playmaker doesn’t HAVE to be a guard.

Sure, I understand this, makes sense. The problem though - who would that guy be? You mentioned Middleton, Siakam, Isaac and Collins. Middleton is the only one of them who can be considered to be any kind of playmaker. The other three are not. Point being - guys you would like are extremely rare and expensive.

(12-28-2020, 05:26 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Most likely to be traded:  THJ (Voulgaris on staff makes me think there is no chance he is here next year)

Curious to know more about Bob and why that would mean THJ not remaining a Mav?

(12-28-2020, 05:45 PM)chaparral Wrote: [ -> ]Curious to know more about Bob and why that would mean THJ not remaining a Mav?

I'm assuming his analytics work are going to be major factors in our lineups and personnel decisions.  I don't think THJ is an advanced metrics darling.

I see the future of the Mavericks being something like

PG: TBD
SG: JRich
SF: Luka (but functionally, on offense, the real PG)
PF: TBD
C: KP

I don't know who the PF is or how we're going to get him. I do believe that the best way to acquire another playmaker is to bring in a true point guard, but one who is not necessarily star level, but 1) capable of guarding other points, 2) playing a fair amount off-ball while playing next to Luka while helping JRich alleviate the offensive pressures on him, and 3) running the team in the likely-departed Brunson's place (and doing so much better) when Luka sits.

George Hill is a kind of a meh name, but he's likely a lot cheaper than many other options in trade and could fill the bill for two or three years until we come up with an upgrade.

(12-28-2020, 05:26 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I don't want to break Kamm's heart:  Bey

To Scott’s point, I think Rose is a really good stop-gap name that would be good in that spot. I’m closer to Kamm’s thought though in that we need 1 more guy like JRich. I have been really impressed with JJ in that way too.

(12-28-2020, 06:23 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I see the future of the Mavericks being something like

PG: TBD
SG: JRich
SF: Luka (but functionally, on offense, the real PG)
PF: TBD
C: KP

I don't know who the PF is or how we're going to get him. I do believe that the best way to acquire another playmaker is to bring in a true point guard, but one who is not necessarily star level, but 1) capable of guarding other points, 2) playing a fair amount off-ball while playing next to Luka while helping JRich alleviate the offensive pressures on him, and 3) running the team in the likely-departed Brunson's place (and doing so much better) when Luka sits.

George Hill is a kind of a meh name, but he's likely a lot cheaper than many other options in trade and could fill the bill for two or three years until we come up with an upgrade.

This is ONE possible way to go, but I no longer believe it’s the best way, necessarily.

I agree that the lineup organization you outlined above is one that needs to be an option, so it would be great if the guy in Burke’s role was really good. Good enough to close games, if needed. I’m not convinced that Burke or possibly THJ isn’t that guy (yet). I think Richardson’s handling is good enough for the other guard in your lineup to be more shooter (like THJ, maybe) or more defender (like Franky Smokes, for example) than playmaker (like Burke, Schroeder, Rubio - just examples).

EITHER WAY, that guy who looks great between DFS (or Luka, your way) and KP isn’t here yet. If I’m running the team, that’s my top priority.

(12-28-2020, 06:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]

(12-28-2020, 06:23 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I see the future of the Mavericks being something like

PG: TBD
SG: JRich
SF: Luka (but functionally, on offense, the real PG)
PF: TBD
C: KP

I don't know who the PF is or how we're going to get him. I do believe that the best way to acquire another playmaker is to bring in a true point guard, but one who is not necessarily star level, but 1) capable of guarding other points, 2) playing a fair amount off-ball while playing next to Luka while helping JRich alleviate the offensive pressures on him, and 3) running the team in the likely-departed Brunson's place (and doing so much better) when Luka sits.

George Hill is a kind of a meh name, but he's likely a lot cheaper than many other options in trade and could fill the bill for two or three years until we come up with an upgrade.

This is ONE possible way to go, but I no longer believe it’s the best way, necessarily.

I agree that the lineup organization you outlined above is one that needs to be an option, so it would be great if the guy in Burke’s role was really good. Good enough to close games, if needed. I’m not convinced that Burke or possibly THJ isn’t that guy (yet). I think Richardson’s handling is good enough for the other guard in your lineup to be more shooter (like THJ, maybe) or more defender (like Franky Smokes, for example) than playmaker (like Burke, Schroeder, Rubio - just examples).

EITHER WAY, that guy who looks great between DFS (or Luka, your way) and KP isn’t here yet. If I’m running the team, that’s my top priority.

I think it's just about got to be that way, given that a guy alongside Luka and JRich who is supposed to be good enough at creating his own shot is going to be ***very*** expensive in trade or contract if he isn't a point guard. JRich is the best-meshing player I have ever seen play with Luka. I have zero interest whatsoever, given that, in pushing him out of position (or to the bench, ugh) by acquiring another SG. If you want an SF who's that good at creating his own shot, his name is likely Lebron, Kawhi, Durant, or Paul George. I'd be hard-pressed to be convinced it isn't a point guard. (Edit: the other aspect of this is that Brunson, this year, as well as at some points last year, is so poor at running the team while Luka sits that we're almost pining for JJB to come back. How in the world do we not need a point guard?)

Since both of us seem to agree that the other (in your case, the foremost) team need is a four, what qualities does that player have? I would propose 1) 35% or better 3p%, 2) strong defense, including some ability to guard the post as well as on the perimeter, and 3) at least an above-average rebounder. I'm still inclined toward Aaron Gordon, although he's ruining that with his fast start.

(12-28-2020, 07:06 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I think it's just about got to be that way, given that a guy alongside Luka and JRich who is supposed to be good enough at creating his own shot is going to be ***very*** expensive in trade or contract if he isn't a point guard. JRich is the best-meshing player I have ever seen play with Luka. I have zero interest whatsoever, given that, in pushing him out of position (or to the bench, ugh) by acquiring another SG. If you want an SF who's that good at creating his own shot, his name is likely Lebron, Kawhi, Durant, or Paul George. I'd be hard-pressed to be convinced it isn't a point guard.

Either you’re not following me, or I’m not following you.

I DON’T think Richardson is a shooter. In fact, between defense, shooting and playmaking, I think shooting is his WORST skill, though good enough. He’s a great fit, but I think adding a PG (let’s say Rubio, just for old time sake) is a step in the WRONG direction, synergy wise. 

What I’m trying to do is put a group together whose skills complement each other on both ends. 

Luka/Richardson/mystery “true PG”, to me, is a recipe for “taking turns” handling the ball and probably missing out on some spacing. 

In short, I have a feeling the Mavs think Richardson IS that “non-star-level” PG on offense you’re talking about.  And, I have a feeling he’s up to it. Small sample size, though.

In your lineup above, I think a Hield/THJ type would fit BEST in the guard slot you have empty. Ideally, a two-way version of that type. I totally think your 2 guards+Luka lineup is a good option to have, and depending on who’s available in the coming months, it might end up being the way they go. 

But, I think that it’s highly possible the best DEFAULT way to go could end up being DFS (or another two-way, catch and shoot guy with good size) at the 3 and a guy who can create for himself a little at the 4. OR, vice-versa.