Not trying to be revisionist here, but I distinctly remember S. Bey being on a lot of wishlists before the last draft. There were those who thought he wouldn't last until the DAL pick.
I don't remember Green being on a lot of those wishlists, at least not at 18. Is my Alzheimer's kicking in early?
I do think there is a line of thought (not that I agree with it) that drafting non superstar players doesn't bring enough of a "reward" because it usually ends up in resigning players coming into 2nd contract before they've had a chance to really demonstrate their value. From a cap standpoint the league doesn't reward teams enough for developing and retaining their own players, imho.
Denver is a phenomenal drafting franchise, and at the end of the day I think they're basically cap penalized for drafting, developing and giving those 2nd contracts to Jamal Murray, Gary Harris and Will Barton. They should get a bigger cap discount for those guys. Same with Hawks and John Collins. I think the Hawks in a bad way because they actually stockpiled too many young players at once, and now they've got to sort out who they're going to extend and who they're going to let walk before they even have a firm handle on what they are. They're going to have Trae on a max in a couple of years, they give Collins a max or near max that's a wrap ... and they still got Hunter and Reddis extensions on the horizon. There shouldn't be such castrophic cap circumstances for signing your homegrown talent after his 3rd season if he turns out not to be quite a Max level player.
(03-18-2021, 01:25 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]Not trying to be revisionist here, but I distinctly remember S. Bey being on a lot of wishlists before the last draft. There were those who thought he wouldn't last until the DAL pick.
I don't remember Green being on a lot of those wishlists, at least not at 18. Is my Alzheimer's kicking in early?
Seems to me like the someone really pounded the table for Green in the predraft process, the Mavs brass fell in love with him and they basically made up their minds they were going to take Green at #18 no matter how the rest of the draft developed (assuming they couldn't trade up to get a top tier player like Haliburton).
I think the reasoning was pretty simple. S Bey was thought of as a bigger wing defender and Green as a guy with elite defensive potential at the guard spot so they went with positional need over talent.
I am sure they talked themselves into the idea that Green was raw but had a higher ceiling offensively. What we have seen so far is a guy who is pretty good defensively as expected but is a total mess offensively and not usable on a good team. Bey on the other hand was ready to step in as a 3D guy right away. It's sad but Mavs probably wasted the pick.
(03-18-2021, 01:32 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think the reasoning was pretty simple. S Bey was thought of as a bigger wing defender and Green as a guy with elite defensive potential at the guard spot so they went with positional need over talent.
I am sure they talked themselves into the idea that Green was raw but had a higher ceiling offensively. What we have seen so far is a guy who is pretty good defensively as expected but is a total mess offensively and not usable on a good team. Bey on the other hand was ready to step in as a 3D guy right away. It's sad but Mavs probably wasted the pick.
The fly in the ointment for that theory to me is that they were trying hard to trade for RoCo before the draft who is in the bigger wing defender mold that Bey is. So I don't know what made them think that wasn't a need anymore after striking out on RoCo. Also, I'm pretty sure the JRich trade was already in their backpocket, so it's not like they needed immediate guard defense moreso than wing defense.
(03-18-2021, 01:26 PM)HanspardShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]I do think there is a line of thought (not that I agree with it) that drafting non superstar players doesn't bring enough of a "reward" because it usually ends up in resigning players coming into 2nd contract before they've had a chance to really demonstrate their value. From a cap standpoint the league doesn't reward teams enough for developing and retaining their own players.
Denver is a phenomenal drafting franchise, and at the end of the day I think they're basically penalized for drafting, developing and giving those 2nd contracts to Jamal Murray, Gary Harris and Will Barton. I also think the Hawks in a bad way because they actually stockpiled too many young players at once, and now they've got to sort out who they're going to extend and who they're going to let walk before they even have a firm handle on what they are.
Seems to me like the someone really pounded the table for Green in the predraft process, the Mavs brass fell in love with him and they basically made up their minds they were going to take Green at #18 no matter how the rest of the draft developed (assuming they couldn't trade up to get a top tier player like Haliburton).
Denver has a really good team, much better than everything they could get on any other way.
And Atlanta was tanking like forever and just has one pick to much, which would be our, if not for the lottery.
We don't know what Green will be yet. The Mavs knew they won't have a pick this year and went for the projekt.
(03-18-2021, 01:32 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I think the reasoning was pretty simple. S Bey was thought of as a bigger wing defender and Green as a guy with elite defensive potential at the guard spot so they went with positional need over talent.
I am sure they talked themselves into the idea that Green was raw but had a higher ceiling offensively. What we have seen so far is a guy who is pretty good defensively as expected but is a total mess offensively and not usable on a good team. Bey on the other hand was ready to step in as a 3D guy right away. It's sad but Mavs probably wasted the pick.
That was my initial thought after the pick was made. They picked for positional need and prefered a SG/SF over a SF/PF. In hindsight that wasn´t the best decision. THJ and Richardson are both among the 6-7 best players on the roster and play the same position. Right now the Mavs could really use a bigger wing.
(03-18-2021, 01:42 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]In hindsight that wasn´t the best decision. THJ and Richardson are both among the 6-7 best players on the roster and play the same position and the Mavs could really use a bigger wing.
I agree that it wasn't the best decision, but S. Bey is listed at 6-7 and 216, so he's of a size with these guys. I'm guessing if we HAD drafted Bey, he'd be behind these two and gathering dust with the other Bey in RC's Rookie Storage Closet (RSC).
(03-18-2021, 01:42 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]That was my initial thought after the pick was made. They picked for positional need and prefered a SG/SF over a SF/PF. In hindsight that wasn´t the best decision. THJ and Richardson are both among the 6-7 best players on the roster and play the same position. Right now the Mavs could really use a bigger wing.
Never thought they 've gone for need - they always needed the bigger wing.
They just liked Green better.
(03-18-2021, 01:42 PM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]Denver has a really good team, much better than everything they could get on any other way.
And Atlanta was tanking like forever and just has one pick to much, which would be our, if not for the lottery.
We don't know what Green will be yet. The Mavs knew they won't have a pick this year and went for the projekt.
Denver has a really good team because they have one of the Top 5-8 players in the league. If you have one of those guys you always have a certain floor, but I don't think Harris, Barton and even Murray (outside of that one bubble stretch) provide them much production bang for the cap buck. Barton and Harris in particular just kind plateau by their 4th year in the league and never hit another level.
Cary
(03-18-2021, 01:49 PM)HanspardShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Denver has a really good team because they have one of the Top 5-8 players in the league. If you have one of those guys you always have a certain floor, but I don't think Harris, Barton and even Murray (outside of that one bubble stretch) provide them much production bang for the cap buck.
Cary
That's a really good point with Jokic.
They still have a better supporting cast by drafting than they would have with FA.
What do you think about MPJ?
Harris might have been a bad choice.
MPJ looks like a future star if he can stay healthy. And they also drafted Malik Beasley that they had to let walk. And Evan Fournier. And Doug McBuckets. (They also traded the rights to Donovan Mitchell for Tyler Lydon and Trey Lyles. And traded the rights to Rudy Gobert for Erick Green ... you don't win them all).
Im not saying the Nuggets suck or that they have the wrong approach. They've been the best drafting team in the league on a pick by pick basis. They're one of the handful of Not Lakers competing in the West. I just think other leagues would reward the best drafting and development franchise in the league more than the NBA does/can. Especially since one of those players turned into a legit star. I'm just saying if the best case scenerio you can hope for by "growing your own food" approach is a perennial playoff team that never really contends, that's why Cuban and Donnie arent' really huge fans. I mean, there's the Thunder and Sixers Process, but that required multiple Top 5 lottery picks to pull off.
I posted that quote about Bey. Although if I am honest, I did not have Bey at the top of my wish list for 18. I had Maxey first and Precious second. Bey was in the group of tier two guys for me. Maxey and Precious had hot starts but their playing time has diminished as the season went along.
I didn't post the Bey quote to say Green was a mistake either. That will be figured out in time. Bey has been playing really well, but he was always going to be further advanced than Green at this stage. Green is more of a developmental project. Bey may have more upside in the long run, but I think it is important to give Green some time. If Green does not earn a spot next year in some kind of regular playing time, I think it will be a disappointing sign for me. For me I am less concerned about his shooting (although this may take a few years for the pro three), I am more worried about his finishing in the lane. In the little we have seen Green, he appears to be a good teammate, plays hard, and has a decent feel for the game. Those are positive signs, but in no way a certainty that he will make it as a very good NBA player.
RE: Saddiq Bey
1) I was not a big fan of his and applauded the Mavs not taking him. However, I also was not a Josh Green fan and was confused by the pick. I would have taken SBey over Green though.
2) I still am not sold on SBey and definitely am incredibly skeptical about him ever being a "star." He is shooting 40% from deep which is great, but he has a 13.1 PER and -3.3 on/off on a bad team. I want LOTS more data before jumping on the SBey wagon.
3) I still think I like Green's potential, especially on D and think he could be elite on D if he keeps working on it. I don't know if RC not playing him is a sign he is a disappointment and possible bust or whether it is RC doing enigmatic things.....
Also, Bey is in a great situation in Detroit for a rookie getting playing time while in Dallas Rick probably has him stuck behind Wes Iwundu.
That said, I wish we would have drafted Bey instead of Green. I know at the very least Bey is going to be an NBA rotation player, not just based on what he's doing as a rookie but what he did during his career at Nova. I have no idea if Green is going to be that, and really I don't know what Green's offensive ceiling is from a best case scenerio.
(03-18-2021, 02:10 PM)HanspardShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]MPJ looks like a future star if he can stay healthy. And they also drafted Malik Beasley that they had to let walk. And Evan Fournier. And Doug McBuckets. (They also traded the rights to Donovan Mitchell for Tyler Lydon and Trey Lyles. And traded the rights to Rudy Gobert for Erick Green ... you don't win them all).
They made a lot of good picks at the sweet spot of the draft. MPJ is luxery they earned themself wih the good picks. They didn´t need to be afraid of wasting a picl.
(03-18-2021, 02:10 PM)HanspardShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Im not saying the Nuggets suck or that they have the wrong approach. They've been the best drafting team in the league on a pick by pick basis. They're one of the handful of Not Lakers competing in the West. I just think other leagues would reward the best drafting and development franchise in the league more than the NBA does/can. Especially since one of those players turned into a legit star. I'm just saying if the best case scenerio you can hope for by "growing your own food" approach is a perennial playoff team that never really contends, that's why Cuban and Donnie arent' really huge fans. I mean, there's the Thunder and Sixers Process, but that required multiple Top 5 lottery picks to pull off.
There isn´t any league rewarding nursing young teams with titles.
Just look at the soccer teams - there is always the Arsenal or Red Bull Leipzig teams with a philosophy of youth, fun and speed and then there is ManUtd or Chelsea and Bayern taking the Cup with skill or power and experience.
Hated the Sixers way and they had a hard time to righten the ship. And they are still hurting by their stupid approach.