(07-06-2021, 01:54 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I understood Hollinger's point, I was more approaching it as the Mavs offer Utah a slight downgrade and take on bad contracts and in return they getr Conley+Clarkson.
Favors+Clarkson+Conley (20mm)= 40mm
Jrich+Kleber= 20mm
20 mil of savings can be a monstrous difference maker, especially if the guys they're getting back are only a slight downgrade. It could be an appealing option if the Jazz are trying their hardest to not cross over into the repeater tax.
Now if the Jazz aren't really interested in what the Mavs have to offer and Conley still wants to come of course sign the dude outright and figure out where to trade THJ for a modest return.
You need to make up your mind what type of deal you have in mind. But none of those is of value in getting Conley.
Your prior post proposed: "maybe a package of Kleber+THJ for Clarkson+Conley" -- and that's not gonna work capwise.
This latest post isn't the same trade at all. It goes in a completely different direction and doesn't really mean anything re Conley. - "Favors+Clarkson+Conley FOR Jrich+Kleber" is a trade package where Mavs are literally using cap room to get Conley, so no one will put him in that trade -- instead, he just signs (or doesn't) with Dallas, end of story.
The Jazz really have no good way to sign Conley to the money he would want, unless they want to be buried deep in tax, and that was Hollinger's point. That problem is an issue for BOTH keeping him and also for trading him (since matching salary comes back).
(07-06-2021, 05:48 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]That problem is an issue for BOTH keeping him and also for trading him (since matching salary comes back).
Opted in JRich actually makes sense for Utah. Of course they can only get him if we trade him. Include him in Conley SnT is an option. The question is, is Utah doing us a favor because we don't want him anyway or is Dallas doing Utah a favor, because they can't have him without us playing along
Creative way would be sending JRich to Utah and then expand trade by including THJ to wherever he wants to go, with Utah SRP as compensation for trouble. If needed expand trade with Dal taking Favours for #30 pick. This would enable Dallas to work as over the cap team.
Dal: Conley (20), Favors (10), -JRich (10), -THJ (15), #30
Uta: JRich (10), - Favors (10)
third team with cap space of THJ choosing: THJ (15), Utah SRP or cash compensation
(07-06-2021, 12:37 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]
Regular season=/= playoff basketball.
You’re right because we kinda man handled the Clippers during the season. I don’t think our team reached a higher gear for the playoffs though.
(07-06-2021, 07:04 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Opted in JRich actually makes sense for Utah. Of course they can only get him if we trade him. Include him in Conley SnT is an option. The question is, is Utah doing us a favor because we don't want him anyway or is Dallas doing Utah a favor, because they can't have him without us playing along Creative way would be sending JRich to Utah and then expand trade by including THJ to wherever he wants to go, with Utah SRP as compensation for trouble. If needed expand trade with Dal taking Favours for #30 pick. This would enable Dallas to work as over the cap team.
Dal: Conley (20), Favors (10), -JRich (10), -THJ (15), #30
Uta: JRich (10), - Favors (10)
third team with cap space of THJ choosing: THJ (15), Utah SRP or cash compensation
If such a trade were potentially possible, I think it would be far beyond the ability of the Mavs' to figure it out, and then successfully negotiate it.
They would see their way to sign Conley for 25, trade J-Rich for Favors, and be done.
(07-06-2021, 09:23 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]If such a trade were potentially possible, I think it would be far beyond the ability of the Mavs' to figure it out, and then successfully negotiate it.
They would see their way to sign Conley for 25, trade J-Rich for Favors, and be done.
I don't think they're quite that helpless (as long as they've retained Keith Grant). They've pulled off some pretty complex stuff in the past. The 4-way Marion S&T and bringing Keith Van Horn out of retirement to trade for Kidd come to mind.
(07-06-2021, 07:04 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Opted in JRich actually makes sense for Utah. Of course they can only get him if we trade him. Include him in Conley SnT is an option. The question is, is Utah doing us a favor because we don't want him anyway or is Dallas doing Utah a favor, because they can't have him without us playing along Creative way would be sending JRich to Utah and then expand trade by including THJ to wherever he wants to go, with Utah SRP as compensation for trouble. If needed expand trade with Dal taking Favours for #30 pick. This would enable Dallas to work as over the cap team.
Dal: Conley (20), Favors (10), -JRich (10), -THJ (15), #30
Uta: JRich (10), - Favors (10)
third team with cap space of THJ choosing: THJ (15), Utah SRP or cash compensation
This is such a similar conversation as one going on in the Roster Talk thread. I'm not sure why folks are trying so hard to force a S&T in a Conley signing. That would be our biggest free agent signing in a long time. We would still have enough cap to bolster the 4 spot and the room for depth. A Conley/Batum offseason would be a big success, especially compared to the last two years.
(07-06-2021, 12:41 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]A hobbled Utah with Conley out and Mitchell on a bum ankle? A series where KP could actually prove useful in bringing Gobert out the paint? Yeah I think the Mavs would have had a great shot against them with Luka playing the way he was playing dropping 40 seemingly every game on 50/50/50 shooting.
PHX had Paul out the first 2 games. That's a BIG deal. I wouldn't automatically just assume they'd beat them though, given how PHX is playing.
But PHX right now wasn't as good as a fully healthy LAC team. Transitive property tells us that the Mavs could have given the Suns a serious run in the WCF and could have had a probable finals birth.
But it doesn't matter. No use in arguing hypotheticals. My argument was mainly to highlight the level at which Luka was playing at, and that he alone could've single handedly propelled this team to the finals.
Fair enough. But Luka while great as he was during the playoffs, I don't think he could single-handedly beat either team, hobbled or not. Whose to say he won't have a poor game or two? You do realize that's awful tough to do. He didn't get any consistent help from THJ or KP. Sure, they had a decent game or two. But nothing to build on. We can do "What If's" all day long. If both teams were completely healthy, I have a hard time believing they beat either, as they are currently constructed, especially with that defense.
(07-06-2021, 12:58 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure why folks are trying so hard to force a S&T in a Conley signing. That would be our biggest free agent signing in a long time. We would still have enough cap to bolster the 4 spot and the room for depth.
Not if JRich opts in. SnT is basically a way to have MLE instead of rMLE, which should result in a better player.
(07-06-2021, 01:17 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Not if JRich opts in. SnT is basically a way to have MLE instead of rMLE, which should result in a better player.
A JRich opt in can be traded away for a second (either outgoing or incoming depending on demand). He is a neutral asset that should be very easy to dump.
After signing Conley, you should have a little more than the MLE left in cap (after dumping JRich if necessary). That plus the room is more valuable than the MLE (12 & 6 > 10). The only potential value of a S&T for Conley is to retain THJ, and as I mentioned in the other thread, that has its own issues.
Giannis is a game time decision now...
(07-06-2021, 01:51 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]A JRich opt in can be traded away for a second (either outgoing or incoming depending on demand). He is a neutral asset that should be very easy to dump.
Cap space has value and no one will be paying a second for selling cap space essentially doing us a favor.
(07-06-2021, 01:51 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]After signing Conley, you should have a little more than the MLE left in cap
You sure? If Conley demands 25 mil you are left with 9 mil of cap space. And you also lose WCS. Sure there are scenarios where SnT is not a positive thing, but there are also a bunch of scenarios where it is. In my example the offseason nets you Conley, MLE and WCS, JRich (or JRich trade). In your example you get Conley, MLE level player and rMLE (but need to dump JRich).
This would be intersting. Unless DeRozan is willing to come for exception money, signing him would require a lot of sacrifice just to avoid hard cap limitation. Most likely it would mean all of Harell, THT, Schroeder and Caruso gone. They can keep one of them if they trade Kuzma. Is DDR worth it? I doubt...
https://twitter.com/TheHoopCentral/statu...5749595138
(07-06-2021, 02:31 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Most likely it would mean all of Harell, THT, Schroeder and Caruso gone. They can keep one of them if they trade Kuzma. Is DDR worth it? I doubt...
I think Harrell is sunk cost to them. Same with Schroeder who is looking for an unrealistic payday. Essentially it'd be Caruso+THT for DDR and that's a fantastic deal imo.
If they get rid of Kuzma instead then the deal is even better.
Pop and THT would be amazing.
(07-06-2021, 02:31 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]This would be intersting. Unless DeRozan is willing to come for exception money, signing him would require a lot of sacrifice just to avoid hard cap limitation. Most likely it would mean all of Harell, THT, Schroeder and Caruso gone. They can keep one of them if they trade Kuzma. Is DDR worth it? I doubt...
https://twitter.com/TheHoopCentral/statu...5749595138
Yeah this is interesting. Derozan is from LA and I am sure was a Lakers fan as a kid. I am sure there is some interest to go to home. Plus, he is at the stage where he will sacrifice a little for a title imo. The Lakers may be able to put together a solid package, but the Spurs could not play if they do not think they are getting a worthy offer.
There are going to be a lot of hungry teams this offseason (Lakers and Dallas being two of them). That is why I hope there is a lot of work already going on behind the scenes.
(07-06-2021, 02:03 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Cap space has value and no one will be paying a second for selling cap space essentially doing us a favor.
You sure? If Conley demands 25 mil you are left with 9 mil of cap space. And you also lose WCS. Sure there are scenarios where SnT is not a positive thing, but there are also a bunch of scenarios where it is. In my example the offseason nets you Conley, MLE and WCS, JRich (or JRich trade). In your example you get Conley, MLE level player and rMLE (but need to dump JRich).
I think some teams might value a 1 year try and see JRich deal at 11 mil. But if you think his value is way less than that, then why would Utah (who has series cap issues) want to take him on in an S&T?
25 mil for Conley seems on the high side, especially if you are going over 2 years. I figure it will be around 3 for 70. You can escalate yearly such that first year salary is in low 20s. That leaves you with only a couple of mil over the MLE, but that is hugely valuable. There are not a lot of teams with cap space, but many with the MLE. By having the ability to pay a couple mil over MLE you have the pick of the litter of MLE level free agents. Considering we lost our top 3 or 4 choices last year and had to settle for WCS and Burke, that can be a big deal.
My primary argument on the other thread was not that operating under the cap was necessarily better, just that it is much more likely. When you find yourself going through a lot of contortions to make something work, odds are its not going to play out. I'm setting my sights on scenarios that have a reasonable chance of happening. I figure there is maybe a 10 to 20 percent chance we can lure Conley, partially due to Utah's tax issues. I think the odds of doing that and making it a full S&T are probably less than 5 percent.