Centers who can't do anything more than 5 feet from the basket on either end get exposed really quickly in the playoffs....
Would anyone consider....
KP + JR
for
Adams + Bledsoe + #10 + #35
?
1) I personally think both Adams & Bledsoe would be better fits with Luka than KP & JR. So you might upgrade both positions right away.
2) Bledsoe becomes an expiring after next season because the last year of his contract is not guaranteed.
3) Adams is cheaper than KP by $14M per yr and both have some defensive liability in a playoff situation. Adams expires sooner than KP. Adams has been a consistent positive for his teams, helping with rebounding, screen setting, and overall great effort.
4) You get draft capital to either use or pass along in another trade.
(07-19-2021, 10:29 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Centers who can't do anything more than 5 feet from the basket on either end get exposed really quickly in the playoffs....
Giannis is doing pretty damn well right now....
I kid I kid. Of course Adams isn't anywhere close to the same level, but I prefer looking at the players fit on the team rather than trying to project how well he'd do in the playoffs.
I think this team desperately needs an elite screener and rebounder, especially off the bench to run with Luka. I think Adams skillset fills that need perfectly.
(07-19-2021, 10:40 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Would anyone consider....
KP + JR
for
Adams + Bledsoe + #10 + #35
?
1) I personally think both Adams & Bledsoe would be better fits with Luka than KP & JR. So you might upgrade both positions right away.
2) Bledsoe becomes an expiring after next season because the last year of his contract is not guaranteed.
3) Adams is cheaper than KP by $14M per yr and both have some defensive liability in a playoff situation. Adams expires sooner than KP. Adams has been a consistent positive for his teams, helping with rebounding, screen setting, and overall great effort.
4) You get draft capital to either use or pass along in another trade.
I personally would NOT do that deal. KP has too much value in my eyes for a return like that. Adams, as much as I love him, does carry a negative trade value given his contract and style of play. Bledsoe is one of the worst starting guards and is going to get paid close to 40 mil over the next 2 years.
So unless Lonzo is attached as well I wouldn't be giving one of our top 3 assets for 2 super negative assets just for a payoff of 2 picks.
I think a variation that makes more sense for both teams would be:
Powell (or Kleber) + Future 2nd round pick
For
Adams (or Bledsoe)+ #10
Saves the Pelicans at least 7-10mil a year and they get a big that fits better around Zion. Mavs take on 1 bad contract that perhaps could fit well and in return for taking on such salary gets a lottery pick.
If the plan is to keep KP, the other big should be able to do these:
1. Defend the paint
2. Rim roll/set good picks
3. Rebound decently for a big
4. Can defend against physical bigs (or just be tough and strong enough to hold his ground)
5. Punish smaller players with a decent go-to-move
6. Can be thrown on the perimeter and not be a total liability.
7. Has a decent free throw rate
8. Is not injury prone.
9. Doesn't need the ball to have an impact on the floor.
10. Can play a fast paced game or a grind-it-out type of game.
So how many does Richaun Holmes get from this list?
Note: If the Mavs wait out on Kawhi or Collins and miss out on both. I never want to read about how Richaun is a target but got scooped up early.
(07-19-2021, 10:40 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Would anyone consider....
KP + JR
for
Adams + Bledsoe + #10 + #35
?
1) I personally think both Adams & Bledsoe would be better fits with Luka than KP & JR. So you might upgrade both positions right away.
2) Bledsoe becomes an expiring after next season because the last year of his contract is not guaranteed.
3) Adams is cheaper than KP by $14M per yr and both have some defensive liability in a playoff situation. Adams expires sooner than KP. Adams has been a consistent positive for his teams, helping with rebounding, screen setting, and overall great effort.
4) You get draft capital to either use or pass along in another trade.
Why would NO do this? From a cap perspective they would be worse off. They would have to value KP more than 10 + 35, which I highly doubt.
If they have any interest in KP, I would be interested in a Ball S&T and would be willing to take the Adams contract off their hands.
I don't see this FO going after draft capital unless they already have a trade lined up for it. I believe they are in win now mode with Luka.
(07-19-2021, 10:56 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]is going to get paid close to 40 mil over the next 2 years
Bledsoe only has one more guaranteed year on his contract. So only $18.1M that you have to pay.
(07-19-2021, 11:07 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Why would NO do this? From a cap perspective they would be worse off.
Because they are desperate to do SOMETHING this year that gets them in the playoffs. There are already rumblings that Zion is eyeing his way out of there. If they aren't going to trade Zion then they need to shuffle the deck around him quickly. Not sure what other avenues they are going to have to improve other than trading those picks.
(07-19-2021, 11:07 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]They would have to value KP more than 10 + 35, which I highly doubt.
It is KP being valued more than 10+35+getting off two big contracts.
To be clear, I am not sure there is a fit here for NOP, but I honestly struggle to find avenues for them to improve.
(07-19-2021, 10:29 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]Centers who can't do anything more than 5 feet from the basket on either end get exposed really quickly in the playoffs....
Sample size ain´t big, but from 5 to 14 feet Adams has been above league average for the last four years. Not exactly like teams ask you to expand your offense and be a scorer, when you play with all those 25-30 PPG scorers.
(07-19-2021, 11:12 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Because they are desperate to do SOMETHING this year that gets them in the playoffs. There are already rumblings that Zion is eyeing his way out of there. If they aren't going to trade Zion then they need to shuffle the deck around him quickly. Not sure what other avenues they are going to have to improve other than trading those picks.
I think there are a lot of people on this board (including you) that would make that trade without the picks. Seems unlikely to me that we would get two additional firsts (including a lottery) for a trade many would do without.
I'm not a fan on counting on the desperation of other teams. They have a lot of potential trade partners if they want to unload those picks to get better. The only scenario where I think we unload KP due to desperation of another team is if we sign Kawhi. The Clippers are completely trapped in that scenario and probably have no choice but to take on KP.
(07-19-2021, 10:40 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Would anyone consider....
KP + JR
for
Adams + Bledsoe + #10 + #35
?
1) I personally think both Adams & Bledsoe would be better fits with Luka than KP & JR. So you might upgrade both positions right away.
2) Bledsoe becomes an expiring after next season because the last year of his contract is not guaranteed.
3) Adams is cheaper than KP by $14M per yr and both have some defensive liability in a playoff situation. Adams expires sooner than KP. Adams has been a consistent positive for his teams, helping with rebounding, screen setting, and overall great effort.
4) You get draft capital to either use or pass along in another trade.
Didn't Kidd trade for Bledsoe in his last year in MIL? I would not want to use both KP and JRich (I like Dan's idea of bringing back more $$ in a JRich trade). But in a pre draft trade you could do KP for Adams + Bledsoe and 2 of there four 2RP's - say 35 and 40. And then use one or both of the 2RP's to move off of Powell.
(07-19-2021, 10:50 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Giannis is doing pretty damn well right now....
I kid I kid. Of course Adams isn't anywhere close to the same level, but I prefer looking at the players fit on the team rather than trying to project how well he'd do in the playoffs.
I think this team desperately needs an elite screener and rebounder, especially off the bench to run with Luka. I think Adams skillset fills that need perfectly.
Well I would argue that Giannis can defend anywhere on the court whereas Adams would get exposed on the perimeter.
I just think we're at the point where this team is going to be judged solely on playoff performances from here on out. You look at someone like Gobert and see how much of a pattern his playoff struggles have been now for nearly half a decade and you got to start to ask yourself if players like that are worth much at this point.
(07-19-2021, 11:25 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are a lot of people on this board (including you) that would make that trade without the picks. Seems unlikely to me that we would get two additional firsts (including a lottery) for a trade many would do without.
A few things:
1) I would not do KP+JR for Adams+Bledsoe. Before RC was gone I wanted KP gone at ALL costs. With a new regime I still WANT him gone, but NOT at all costs. I am intrigued if different coaching can get better results from him, in large part because I think his psyche will be much better with RC gone.
2) It would only be ONE first round pick (#10). #35, the other pick, is a 2nd rounder. Probably just an accident with your wording, but wanted to clarify.
3) I think Adams and Bledsoe have little value around the league (which is why I wonder if this trade might be possible). I think the Mavs are unique in that Adams and Bledsoe would have more value to the Mavs simply because of Luka. I think Luka makes a player like Adams MUCH more valuable. If you don't have a Luka then Adams and his contract become a big negative.
(07-19-2021, 11:35 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]I just think we're at the point where this team is going to be judged solely on playoff performances from here on out. You look at someone like Gobert and see how much of a pattern his playoff struggles have been now for nearly half a decade and you got to start to ask yourself if players like that are worth much at this point.
100% agreed on playoffs being all that matters.
I hesitate to jump full-in on the thought that bigs are becoming completely expendable in the playoffs. I think what is being exposed is not completely the bigs, but in part the rest of the roster AROUND those bigs.
Even with KP this past season. He was a GIANT negative (worst on the team of -8.8 in the playoffs if my memory serves). But I don't think that was ALL on KP. The failure of the DAL perimeter players on D made KP seem way worse even than he was. Don't get me wrong, he was bad, but I think the players around him made it worse.
I think with Gobert this has been the case. In the regular season Gobert HIDES the terrible D of his teammates. But in the playoffs what gets exposed is not Gobert, but the inability of his teammates to really play good D.
In the regular season a good defensive big can cover a multitude of defensive sins. But in the playoffs that ability is lessened. That doesn't mean you throw out the big in the playoffs. In the 1060 minutes of MIL's playoffs this season, the team has been +0.5 better defensively with Brook Lopez playing. That's NOT because Lopez is a great perimeter defender as a big. It is because he has good defensive teammates.
Point? I think cohesive team D is the most important thing, with guys willing to defend at every position. A weakness anywhere exposes everyone, but especially a big man, making the big man look bad when it isn't completely his fault.
Adams and Bledsoe work if the mid range plan is Jokic 2023.
(07-19-2021, 11:49 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]100% agreed on playoffs being all that matters.
I hesitate to jump full-in on the thought that bigs are becoming completely expendable in the playoffs. I think what is being exposed is not completely the bigs, but in part the rest of the roster AROUND those bigs.
Even with KP this past season. He was a GIANT negative (worst on the team of -8.8 in the playoffs if my memory serves). But I don't think that was ALL on KP. The failure of the DAL perimeter players on D made KP seem way worse even than he was. Don't get me wrong, he was bad, but I think the players around him made it worse.
I think with Gobert this has been the case. In the regular season Gobert HIDES the terrible D of his teammates. But in the playoffs what gets exposed is not Gobert, but the inability of his teammates to really play good D.
In the regular season a good defensive big can cover a multitude of defensive sins. But in the playoffs that ability is lessened. That doesn't mean you throw out the big in the playoffs. In the 1060 minutes of MIL's playoffs this season, the team has been +0.5 better defensively with Brook Lopez playing. That's NOT because Lopez is a great perimeter defender as a big. It is because he has good defensive teammates.
Point? I think cohesive team D is the most important thing, with guys willing to defend at every position. A weakness anywhere exposes everyone, but especially a big man, making the big man look bad when it isn't completely his fault.
I think all the points you're making are fair but I still don't think I agree. With Gobert, it felt much more like a smaller lineup exposed him because he isn't the type of player to be able to close out on anything on the perimeter. Those giant games from Terance Mann were in large part because they didn't have anyone to rotate out onto him because they wanted to keep Gobert close to the rim.
It the case with Lopez, I would argue that he actually is a capable to defender (certainly not the best) but also stretches the floor on the other side. Not saying the big man is dead at all, it's just evolved and I worry that guys of the old guard like Adams don't make that much of an impact.
As a backup big? Sure, I'm all for it because there are matchups that he would obviously thrive in but 18 mil a year for a backup big is a lot.
One other thing I would add is that if Adams stretched the floor vertically it would also help but he doesn't really do that either. I just worry he would clog the paint on offense.
(07-19-2021, 11:58 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]With Gobert, it felt much more like a smaller lineup exposed him because he isn't the type of player to be able to close out on anything on the perimeter.
So I think the reason Gobert doesn't go out to the perimeter is not because he is incapable (I think he can be pretty decent out there when needed), but because the coaches tell him NOT to because they know that if Gobert goes to the perimeter its a layup line for the other team. It is a layup line not because Gobert is the problem, but because his teammates actually can't keep anyone in front of them without Gobert looming in the paint. So the team picks its poison and has Gobert lay back and dare someone to shoot (hoping he misses).
(07-19-2021, 12:01 PM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]One other thing I would add is that if Adams stretched the floor vertically it would also help but he doesn't really do that either. I just worry he would clog the paint on offense.
A legit concern. BUT if you play Adams with a PF that can spread the floor, I think it works. Luka using Adams as the primary pick and roll action does not ruin spacing, because the teams know how much Luka can help Adams PUNISH the team at the rim. So I think used properly Adams actually ADDS spacing on offense....but again you need shooters at every other position though.