MavsBoard

(08-09-2021, 12:02 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]There is a certain degree of arbitrariness to assessments like this, which the author acknowledges. 

I think articles like this are most useful looked at from a more big picture point of view, as opposed to what particular details might be arguable. 

I think here, the larger point is that championship teams tend to have a certain amount of high-level talent among several of their top players, and the Mavs really don't. I don't think that's too surprising a conclusion. Hopefully, they can work on that from several different angles.

It also gives you a sense of how valuable our guys look to at least fans of the league. I mean, if we traded DFS, would fans of the team he is traded to really be all that excited? That buzz drives money, money drives the NBA.

(08-09-2021, 12:09 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]It also gives you a sense of how valuable our guys look to at least fans of the league. I mean, if we traded DFS, would fans of the team he is traded to really be all that excited? That buzz drives money, money drives the NBA.

I think a lot of us have been seduced into thinking of our team as, if not title contenders, close to it. Rightly or wrongly. Whereas, I think the team is viewed, among professionals as well as other fans, as more of a fringe playoff team. So it is hard to get players who want to play with a contender interested. 

That can turn around. Hope it does.

(08-09-2021, 12:49 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I think a lot of us have been seduced into thinking of our team as, if not title contenders, close to it.

(08-09-2021, 12:09 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]It also gives you a sense of how valuable our guys look to at least fans of the league. I mean, if we traded DFS, would fans of the team he is traded to really be all that excited? That buzz drives money, money drives the NBA.

I actually think DFS has easily the 2nd highest trade value on our team and opposing GMs and fans like him, because he severely outplays his contract. Also the only Maverick besides Luka to show up for the last four play-off games. Maxi Kleber and Jalen Brunson also come up in trade talks here and there as good bench rotational players. Literally nobody wants Porzingis. THJ eh. Rest isn´t even worth mentioning.

(08-09-2021, 12:49 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]I think a lot of us have been seduced into thinking of our team as, if not title contenders, close to it.

I think there are only like three people that post here that think the team is any good at all. Not sure who is doing the seducing, and I don't think the Mavs are title contenders the way KP played last year, but I think they're top 4 in the west.

(08-09-2021, 12:53 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I actually think DFS has easily the 2nd highest trade value on our team and opposing GMs and fans like him, because he severely outplays his contract. Also the only Maverick besides Luka to show up for the last four play-off games. Maxi Kleber and Jalen Brunson also come up in trade talks here and there as good bench rotational players. Literally nobody wants Porzingis. THJ eh. Rest isn´t even worth mentioning.

When you have NBA players referring to them as YMCA players, the majority of fans are not gonna be excited to receive those players. There are WAY more casual fans than hardcore ones that talk basketball like us.

(08-09-2021, 01:06 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]When you have NBA players referring to them as YMCA players, the majority of fans are not gonna be excited to receive those players. There are WAY more casual fans than hardcore ones that talk basketball like us.

To call it “Luka and a bunch of guys” is pretty fair. But it’s not completely true. It’s similar to saying a college team could beat an nba team. Maybe it’s okay to say to make a point, but it’s technically not true.

I do think the league has deep bias against the Mavs. Luka did not even make the all-star team his rookie year, and the player vote was the reason why. And the reason why the players didn’t vote him was a lack of respect.

Year two he made the all-star team, should have been in the mvp convo but wasn’t. After the bubble playoffs though, we were the hot ticket for everything. (If KP had played after game 2, Mavs win! Mavs will be a top seed! Luka for MVP!) see how quickly sentiment can change?

With the Mavs it’s always some type of negative sentiment. Whether it’s our euro-centricity (and by default softness) or our similar to eurocentricity but our whiteness(unathletic) or the deep bias around the L (east coast/west coast runs the nba and Mavs were laughing stock of the 90’s) and now Luka’s aloneness(sharing floor with YMCA players).

It’s all BS. We have done a lot without hardly any draft collateral. And KP/THJ was an amazing trade that is yet to work out. 

My whole thing is we are moving in the right direction and have become a good team. But I do agree with anyone who thinks the nba deck is stacked against us.

(08-09-2021, 12:55 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are only like three people that post here that think the team is any good at all. Not sure who is doing the seducing, and I don't think the Mavs are title contenders the way KP played last year, but I think they're top 4 in the west.

The seducing is by the negative nancies IMO. Things were UGLY last season and yet the Mavs got the fifth seed and played full strength LAC better than anyone. The Mavs addressed two of the three biggest issues already. KP is still a huge question mark, but there is more reason for general optimism than thinking the Mavs are in some horrible position and situation.

(08-09-2021, 08:55 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]This is how one analyst sees quality of players in the league. The only Mav in the 80-125 range is THJ (barely made it) and we can be reasonably sure only KP and Luka are in the 1-80 range yet to come. No Maxi, DFS, Bullock,...

https://theathletic.com/2737630/2021/08/...ica-zubac/

I agree with @"mavsluvr"  that is a certain amount of arbitrariness to these rankings.

Here’s a look at the math;

80-125 basically represents the average of all rosters players ranked 3.67-5.18. So mostly the 4th best players on a given team (90-120). Well we all know how variable this area can be from one season to another, which team is winning, what players fit best and where... 

So arbitrariness basically nailed it. I wouldn’t put any stock in these rankings year to year.

Outside of Luka:

-KP should be a starter, even with all of his ups and downs.
-THJ could go either way as a starter or super 6th man.
-DFS is probably a rotational guy on most teams.  I think most teams will have one of these guys in a starting role due to necessity.
-Maxi is a lesser DFS
-Bullock we hope is a better DFS.
-Brown we hope is smaller version of DFS.
-Powell should be a rotational player and never start.
-WCS is much like Powell.
-Boban should not play.
-Burke should not play.
-Green is not ready to play.

(08-09-2021, 01:39 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The seducing is by the negative nancies IMO. Things were UGLY last season and yet the Mavs got the fifth seed and played full strength LAC better than anyone. The Mavs addressed two of the three biggest issues already. KP is still a huge question mark, but there is more reason for general optimism than thinking the Mavs are in some horrible position and situation.

I know this might be shocking to some Mavs fans, but other teams had problems, too.

We finished with the same record as the Lakers and Blazers.

Davis missed 36 games, LeBron missed 17 games and replaced Schroeder with Westbrook. 

The Blazers played without Nurkic for 35 games and McCollum for 25 games.

Then there is the Warriors team, who finished three games behind us (going 2-7 without Steph), who will get Klay Thompson back.

Barton and Murray missed 25 games each for the Nuggets.

Kawhi and PG13 missed 20 games each for the Clippers.

Conley and Mitchell missed 20 games each for the Jazz.

(08-09-2021, 01:57 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I know this might be shocking to some Mavs fans, but other teams had problems, too.

We finished with the same record as the Lakers and Blazers.

Davis missed 36 games, LeBron missed 17 games and replaced Schroeder with Westbrook. 

The Blazers played without Nurkic for 35 games and McCollum for 25 games.

Then there is the Warriors team, who finished three games behind us (going 2-7 without Steph), who will get Klay Thompson back.

Barton and Murray missed 25 games each for the Nuggets.

Kawhi and PG13 missed 20 games each for the Clippers.

Conley and Mitchell missed 20 games each for the Jazz.

No one ever suggested they didn't. 

But it can be easily argued that the Mavs season was far more chaotic and tumultuous than all or most of these other teams. Did any of those teams have a locker room on the verge of collapsing (thank God for Boban keeping it from happening!)?

(08-09-2021, 02:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]No one ever suggested they didn't. 

But it can be easily argued that the Mavs season was far more chaotic and tumultuous than all or most of these other teams. Did any of those teams have a locker room on the verge of collapsing (thank God for Boban keeping it from happening!)?

I don´t know, do you? We didn´t even know about the extent of the Mavs problems until Carlisle was fired.

(08-09-2021, 01:06 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]When you have NBA players referring to them as YMCA players, the majority of fans are not gonna be excited to receive those players.

You think the majority of fans base their thoughts on Gilbert Arenas comments? 

Also, you used the plural. Who else said that besides Arenas?

(08-09-2021, 02:08 PM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I don´t know, do you? We didn´t even know about the extent of the Mavs problems until Carlisle was fired.

We didn't know the extent for sure....but anyone who followed my opinions this year starting back in Dec knows I thought things were hell in the Mavs chemistry realm.

(08-09-2021, 12:55 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are only like three people that post here that think the team is any good at all. Not sure who is doing the seducing, and I don't think the Mavs are title contenders the way KP played last year, but I think they're top 4 in the west.

I don't as currently constructed. They aren't better than Utah, Phoenix, Lakers if healthy, Denver or the Clippers if Kawhi was healthy. Then you have GS who'll get Klay back and they added players, Memphis is on the comeup. They only get to being a top 4 seed if KP has a career year, and JKidd has a outstanding season as coach. Luka still has to do too much, and the bench has to be consistent.

(08-09-2021, 12:55 PM)fifteenth Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are only like three people that post here that think the team is any good at all. Not sure who is doing the seducing, and I don't think the Mavs are title contenders the way KP played last year, but I think they're top 4 in the west.

Wow!  Hope you're right!

Who are the other three teams in the top 4, fif?

(08-09-2021, 01:49 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Outside of Luka:

-KP should be a starter, even with all of his ups and downs.
-THJ could go either way as a starter or super 6th man.
-DFS is probably a rotational guy on most teams.  I think most teams will have one of these guys in a starting role due to necessity.
-Maxi is a lesser DFS
-Bullock we hope is a better DFS.
-Brown we hope is smaller version of DFS.
-Powell should be a rotational player and never start.
-WCS is much like Powell.
-Boban should not play.
-Burke should not play.
-Green is not ready to play.

I look at it this way:

Luka: Superstar
KP: #3 starter
THJ: #4 starter
DFS: 4/5 starter
Bullock: #5 starter
Maxi: Quality rotational player
Brunson: Quality rotational Player
Powell: Quality rotational Player (when fully healthy)
Brown: hopefully quality rotational player
WCS: Ok rotational player

This team really needs a #2, needs a secondary playmaker, and even if KP gets back to form is going to struggle with defense starting Luka and THJ.  You can see why they were willing to overpay Lowry.  He would have addressed just about every hole (assuming he doesn't fall off a cliff).  Even just adding a 2 way number 3 that can handle the ball would have been a big help (I think we should have pushed harder for Ball).

This was our last chance to get that #2/3 player until we get access to a bunch of our firsts.  I know there were not a lot of options out there, but I'm bummed we are basically just running it back.

(08-09-2021, 02:29 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I look at it this way:

Luka: Superstar
KP: #3 starter
THJ: #4 starter
DFS: 4/5 starter
Bullock: #5 starter
Maxi: Quality rotational player
Brunson: Quality rotational Player
Powell: Quality rotational Player (when fully healthy)
Brown: hopefully quality rotational player
WCS: Ok rotational player

This team really needs a #2, needs a secondary playmaker, and even if KP gets back to form is going to struggle with defense starting Luka and THJ.  You can see why they were willing to overpay Lowry.  He would have addressed just about every hole (assuming he doesn't fall off a cliff).  Even just adding a 2 way number 3 that can handle the ball would have been a big help (I think we should have pushed harder for Ball).

This was our last chance to get that #2/3 player until we get access to a bunch of our firsts.  I know there were not a lot of options out there, but I'm bummed we are basically just running it back.

Dang, how did I forget JB?

(08-09-2021, 02:22 PM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]I don't as currently constructed. They aren't better than Utah, Phoenix, Lakers if healthy, Denver or the Clippers if Kawhi was healthy. Then you have GS who'll get Klay back and they added players, Memphis is on the comeup. They only get to being a top 4 seed if KP has a career year. Luka still has to do too much, and the bench has to be consistent.

But Kawhi isn't healthy and everyone seems to forget that Jamal Murray is going to miss a significant amount of time this season as well.  

I'm also astounded at how many people are assuming Klay is going to be Klay again after everything he's been through.  He could be great but the idea that he's just going to lift a team that didn't even make the playoffs into a top 4 seed after tearing his ACL and achilles is a pretty big leap in my opinion.  Kuminga and Moody are not going to be ceiling raisers their first season either.

We didn't have some grand offseason that some were expecting (although I still think Dragic will be on this roster before the playoffs start) but we were the 5 seed after facing a TON of adversity early on last season.  

Top 4 is not a crazy statement and really speaks more to the point that the West is getting weaker as the East is getting stronger.  People are just being reactionary to what kind of seemed inevitable.  We were either going to get Lowry or we were going to make incremental improvements.  It's really all we could do.

Having said that...if we don't address our 2023 pick soon and how asset poor we are to make big adjustments then we're being foolish.  You can't just sit around a say "well after the 2023 draft we can really make moves" when you have someone as good as Luka on your roster currently.