MavsBoard

(02-24-2022, 04:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Unrelated, the NBA Front Office Podcast yesterday discussed a report (no citation) that Holmes would likely be traded this summer.  Both of the guys tabbed Dallas as the likely destination. 

Holmes/Powell
DFS/Maxi
Bullock/Green/Harkless
Brunson/SD
Luka/SD

Many of us wanted Holmes.
Even now.

That lineup of yours is a good one, but I just don't think Holmes is going to be a Mav. If the Mavs wanted him, they could have had him already. He was an unrestricted FA. Should have just let go of WCS and THJ, and dump Brown, and worry about trading KP later.

But if he does become a Mav, I'm good with that center rotation.

I’m good with the C rotation, I’m iffy on DFS being an almost full time big wing.

(02-24-2022, 08:30 AM)Jason Terry Wrote: [ -> ] 
Mavs: Holmes and Harkless

Kings: Dinwiddie and Burke plus 22 FRP

Burke is the tough contract to move. Brown i think a team would take him at little to no cost. Move him using one of the many small trade exceptions around the league………use the roster spot on Dragic for 10 yr vet min ($2.8) and the roster is complete. 

A few thoughts:

I think Sac. has a greater need for THJ than Dinwiddie.  I don't think you have to attach a FRP in either deal.  Burke isn't difficult to move at all.  Ideally, teams would pay their third PG the minimum or late-first type money.  Burke only has a year left at very little more than that.

Are we sure Dragic is better than Dinwiddie at this point?

---

(02-24-2022, 08:42 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]Many of us wanted Holmes.
Even now.

That lineup of yours is a good one, but I just don't think Holmes is going to be a Mav. If the Mavs wanted him, they could have had him already. He was an unrestricted FA. Should have just let go of WCS and THJ, and dump Brown, and worry about trading KP later.

But if he does become a Mav, I'm good with that center rotation.

I think they had a different plan this summer (Lowry).  I think they thought they still had a chance when they decided to keep Willie and operate over the cap.  Once they did that, THJ had to be prioritized over Holmes as they still had KP and 17 other centers.  With Hield now gone and Harkless their best SF, I think Hardaway makes sense in Sac and Holmes makes sense in Dallas.

(02-24-2022, 08:37 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Love a RH/DP center rotation for the Mavs. 

I do not like using a 1st to dump DB. I think DB is WAY too useful as a movement shooter to spend assets to get rid of. I would much rather keep him and play him.

I don't disagree.  Just pointing out where you can get between the two deals.  If you add Holmes and move Maxi back to PF, you either need to move Bertans or drop DFS to SF (which then squeezes PT for Bullock/Green/Harkless.

(02-24-2022, 04:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Unrelated, the NBA Front Office Podcast yesterday discussed a report (no citation) that Holmes would likely be traded this summer.  Both of the guys tabbed Dallas as the likely destination.  They mentioned Bullock as a logical match or maybe something involving THJ with more outgoing coming back from Sac (like Holmes plus Mo Harkless). 

I like Holmes. I want Holmes. I don't think Holmes is worth breaking up the top 6 rotation in Luka/JB/Bullock/DFS/Maxi/Powell/. 

So I agree anything involving THJ for Holmes as the general framework and I'm very much interested. I don't think Holmes has much value in the league currently. Especially after the Sabonis deal. He's probably viewed slightly higher than Powell. Both are on similar contracts. Holmes produces slightly more. 

In that mindset I wouldn't give up '22 first at all. THJ for Holmes+Harkless seems like a win for both sides. 

(02-24-2022, 04:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]The buzz is Kemba wouldn't take any further discount, having already taken one in OKC, to be bought out there.  That, and/or NY wants to have his contract for use in a trade this summer.  

BTW, Kemba plus Reddish gets you to the area where they can match the 125% rule for a S&T for Brunson at a starting number of $19mm that avoids BYC with Dallas being a taxpayer.

Or Kemba plus Toppin gets you to the area where they can match the 125% rule for a S&T for Brunson at a starting number of $18mm that avoids BYC with Dallas being a taxpayer.  

The numbers require a second Mav as part of the outgoing...either Brown or Burke.  Add picks as you feel it necessary.

That makes sense that NYK is trying to protect their asset and Kemba is trying to rehab. But I cannot express how little interest I have in any NYK deal for Brunson. I'm at the point where I want NYK to try and dare NYK to clear cap, because I feel like Brunson doesn't really have an interest in heading to that dumpster fire. Especially since he's already starting here.

(02-24-2022, 08:42 AM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]Many of us wanted Holmes.
Even now.

That lineup of yours is a good one, but I just don't think Holmes is going to be a Mav. If the Mavs wanted him, they could have had him already. He was an unrestricted FA. Should have just let go of WCS and THJ, and dump Brown, and worry about trading KP later.

But if he does become a Mav, I'm good with that center rotation.

(02-24-2022, 10:59 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]I think they had a different plan this summer (Lowry).  I think they thought they still had a chance when they decided to keep Willie and operate over the cap.  Once they did that, THJ had to be prioritized over Holmes as they still had KP and 17 other centers.  With Hield now gone and Harkless their best SF, I think Hardaway makes sense in Sac and Holmes makes sense in Dallas.

I think people may be overreading last summer in terms of predicting moves going forward. As I pointed out before, Chicago's new brain trust did practically nothing their first summer. Their first big move came at the trade dead-line almost 9 months after they had taken over, then they were incredibly active the next summer (last off-season). As the brand-new team took over the Mavs, they played it conservative. Add one solid vet (Bullock) who clearly fits Kidd's desired playing styles, maybe keep options open for another vet who 99% of the media and fans considered a no-brainer (Lowry). Conserve what assets you have by making sure you keep THJ (and Willie, though as you say that may have been more of an accounting move than anything). Then take the first half of the season to personally evaluate what you actually have.

Holmes was not a no-brainer, especially not last summer when the current MBT either a) didn't know if they wanted to move off KP, or b) knew they wanted to move off KP but weren't sure how and when they could do so.

(02-24-2022, 12:34 PM)Arioch Wrote: [ -> ]Holmes was not a no-brainer, especially not last summer when the current MBT either a) didn't know if they wanted to move off KP, or b) knew they wanted to move off KP but weren't sure how and when they could do so.

I guess you could make the case that having someone like Holmes onboard would have made it harder to give KP the playing time and space needed to rehab his value enough to at least get him traded. If Holmes works like a lot here think, then the mob would have been out to bench KP and you would have had to trade him for a couple of 2-ways.

(02-24-2022, 12:38 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]then the mob would have been out to bench KP and you would have had to trade him for a couple of 2-ways.

I fail to see how this is worse than the trade they made

(02-24-2022, 12:38 PM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]I guess you could make the case that having someone like Holmes onboard would have made it harder to give KP the playing time and space needed to rehab his value enough to at least get him traded. If Holmes works like a lot here think, then the mob would have been out to bench KP and you would have had to trade him for a couple of 2-ways.

No question in my mind the same trade they got for KP would have been there for KP throughout most of the season, and less playing time for KP possibly means less injuries, although you won’t see me trying to stick around for that argument!

What if before we give him less minutes and at a point where he wasn’t injured, we do that trade and the team now has a more integrated SD and DB to go into the stretch run? On top of that, we have Holmes from the beginning of the season rearing to be unleashed!

don't give a 1 for Holmes...with Turner/Poelt expiring on rebuilding teams, or with maybe Capella available... It would be an improvement for sure... but it does not bring anything new, it lacks size, it is not a defensive anchor and it does not solve our rebounding problems either.

(02-24-2022, 08:37 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Love a RH/DP center rotation for the Mavs. 

I do not like using a 1st to dump DB. I think DB is WAY too useful as a movement shooter to spend assets to get rid of. I would much rather keep him and play him.

Your probably in luck because I doubt our 22 is enough to get off that contract.  

Its really hard to see Bertans as anything more than a 15-20 minute scorer off the bench that you hope to hide on defense.  That is not worth anywhere near 17 mil.  SA dumped him for nothing, the Wiz have been trying to get off that contract as soon as they signed it, the fans are super excited to see him leave and that contract is on most lists of terrible contracts.  Add in his injury history and the fact that his shot is broken, and it feels like there is more hopeful projection here than what we did with JRich.

If we bring in Holmes, I really like the Holmes/DFS starting frontcourt and the DP/Maxi second unit.  Where does Bertans fit in that?  He would be our 5th best big.  If you push DFS down to the 3, your eating into Bullock/Green minutes.  Luka/Brunson/Din have the other two spots mostly locked up.  

(02-24-2022, 04:11 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Its really hard to see Bertans as anything more than a 15-20 minute scorer off the bench that you hope to hide on defense.  That is not worth anywhere near 17 mil.

Nope, but it's so, so, so much closer to actual worth than Porzingis and that crazy salary of his. 

No need to "get off" of Bertans. He's fine right where he is for now (as long as Cuban is willing to spend his way through the next stage of fixing the Porzingis disaster).

(02-24-2022, 11:32 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I like Holmes. I want Holmes. I don't think Holmes is worth breaking up the top 6 rotation in Luka/JB/Bullock/DFS/Maxi/Powell/. 

So I agree anything involving THJ for Holmes as the general framework and I'm very much interested. I don't think Holmes has much value in the league currently. Especially after the Sabonis deal. He's probably viewed slightly higher than Powell. Both are on similar contracts. Holmes produces slightly more. 

In that mindset I wouldn't give up '22 first at all. THJ for Holmes+Harkless seems like a win for both sides. 

I just listened to a round table on the Locked-On Podcast with guys from LA, Denver and Minnesota.  Interesting thing the out-of-town guys said was Dallas was calling everyone trying to move THJ before the TDL.  Then the last couple of days they called everyone back and said "did we say Hardaway?, sorry, we meant we were willing to trade KP".  Tongue-in-cheek (which isn't always obvious on message board). 

Point being that THJ looks really expendable (as many suspect).  Even if we freed up picks, he probably has too many years left to be a good piece of a trade for a star.  It feels like "we trade our ill fitting center for your ill fitting wing" (which is a position of need for Sac) makes some sense.

(02-24-2022, 04:22 AM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]1 ... maybe something involving THJ with more outgoing coming back from Sac (like Holmes plus Mo Harkless).  I like the latter deal for both teams.  Dallas saves $3.8mm in the swap. 
2  I could see sending the pick and Bertans to a cap room team to save another $18.2mm if getting under the tax is a priority. 
3  I believe they can pay Brunson in the $18-$19mm range and stay under the tax between those two deals, upgrade the C position and create a sizable TPE. 

^ Good thought-provoking ideas.

1a I like THJ for Holmes + Harkless as a foundational move for the summer that they can build from. (It would have to happen in July.) Instead of moving THJ just to move on, it turns him into an asset of sorts in the process. That's what the better FO's find a way to do. To me, this definitely qualifies.

1b But ...The Mavs will have a numbers problem in the summer, and this 1-for-2 makes it worse. IMO not a deal-killer, but better if it can be a 2-for-2. In the process of figuring that out, is there an even bigger possibility that includes THJ for Holmes? Just saying. It is the Kings, after all, and in desperation mode most likely.

But if available, I'd consider THJ-Holmes the one item of all the above and below that I make sure to do, the top priority, if available. Wouldn't want that to get away if offered.


2a  I wouldn't want to use a pick to move DB in in 2-for-0 (unless he spares it up the next 2 months), even despite the numbers crunch. I would think those are both assets, which the Mavs need more of, not less. IMO you need your outgoing assets to be swapped for incoming assets, not for air (aka less payroll). Or keep them.

2b I also do wonder if trading away BOTH DB and THJ might be too much shooting outgoing. (Then I pivot and wonder if there could be a trade where DB goes to Sac as added to THJ-Holmes, with some other shooter who is more cost-efficient acquired somewhere.)


3 To me, $18-19M seems higher than needed for JB starting salary. Just like $15M seemed way higher than would be needed for DFS, though oft discussed as what it could take. In his role here, JB is very good at what he does (and I think he needs to be a priority to keep), but I think such salary expectations are higher than it will take because of size, past role, past salary, and draft position. Pay tends to follow perception, and those things impact perception. Someone can always pay wildly, of course, but that's not so likely as it once was, with teams looking for better return-per-dollar for their spending.

(02-24-2022, 06:13 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Nope, but it's so, so, so much closer to actual worth than Porzingis and that crazy salary of his. 

No need to "get off" of Bertans. He's fine right where he is for now (as long as Cuban is willing to spend his way through the next stage of fixing the Porzingis disaster).

Like I said, I don't think we could if we tried.  We are stuck with him for a while.  I do find it interesting that folks have been dying to get off THJ, Powell, Burke and Boban contracts, but there is "no need" to get off Bertans, who is a worse contract than any of those.

(02-25-2022, 12:38 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I do find it interesting that folks have been dying to get off THJ, Powell, Burke and Boban contracts, but there is "no need" to get off Bertans, who is a worse contract than any of those.

My interest in the contracts was tied first to cap space (that's over as of last summer) and then to avoiding the tax so that DFS and Brunson are retained. It seems that moving Porzingis has given the Mavs enough confidence about navigating the next couple of years to talk themselves into trying to retain both, so it's all good. 

I never cared about moving any of the players you mentioned (to be fair, I was mad at the re-signing of Boban). Obviously, I would have been/am willing to see them get moved for the right purpose, but their contracts have never bothered me. I think Powell is a little overpaid, probably, but THJ isn't. Burke isn't. I think those arguments are silly. I am excited about moving THJ now because his role seems to be gone, so "normal" basketball reasons. I don't think his contract is bad at all when he's healthy, so I feel like that potentially could be a good trade for the Mavericks. 

Everything about Porzingis' presence on this team was a negative. His contract was way, way worse than Bertans'. I don't even mind Bertans' contract, as long as he has a role here. In the event he falls out of the rotation, which I don't expect to happen, it's still such an improvement over having KP here that I don't think it would bother me much. Frankly, just having the option of benching him (which is the worst case scenario) is an improvement over the Porzingis situation. 

I was shocked at the reality of Porzingis' worth just like everyone. I was disappointed that the KP chapter had one final nut-punch to throw at us, but at least it's over. That is good, period. I prefer to have Bertans and Dinwiddie here than Porzingis. I actually believe there's a good chance either or both of them will do some good things here. The time that has gone by since the TDL has raised my opinion of the trade, not lowered it. I can envision a future in which I'm a fan of Bertans, even. Shooting is rad!

(02-24-2022, 11:54 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]3 To me, $18-19M seems higher than needed for JB starting salary. Just like $15M seemed way higher than would be needed for DFS, though oft discussed as what it could take. In his role here, JB is very good at what he does (and I think he needs to be a priority to keep), but I think such salary expectations are higher than it will take because of size, past role, past salary, and draft position. Pay tends to follow perception, and those things impact perception. Someone can always pay wildly, of course, but that's not so likely as it once was, with teams looking for better return-per-dollar for their spending.

This is interesting and hopeful! I would love Brunson back at less than $20 million per! They are basically in a situation wherein they need to pay what it's going to take, imho, so it's nice to think they can actually going to get a good deal.

(02-24-2022, 11:54 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]^ Good thought-provoking ideas.

1a I like THJ for Holmes + Harkless as a foundational move for the summer that they can build from. (It would have to happen in July.) Instead of moving THJ just to move on, it turns him into an asset of sorts in the process. That's what the better FO's find a way to do. To me, this definitely qualifies.

1b But ...The Mavs will have a numbers problem in the summer, and this 1-for-2 makes it worse. IMO not a deal-killer, but better if it can be a 2-for-2.  

Sac. has a $4mm TPE from the Haliburton deal which makes the 2-for-2 deal much easier to accomplish (it is going to take a while to get the fact that we don't have a $5mm trade spread locked into my brain).  Holmes/Harkless for Hardaway and any of our sub $4mm guys works using their TPE.

In terms of expanding the deal, I guess you are thinking expiring Barnes?  Might they lose him for nothing in a year and something is better than nothing?  He had 30 in his first game with Sabonis, but has been pretty meh since.  I guess something to keep an eye on.  I can actually see THJ filling a need on their roster in the Holmes deal.  I have a harder time replacing Barnes with anything on our roster if I'm looking at it from their perspective.