MavsBoard

(12-14-2023, 05:12 PM)MarkAguirreWrathofGod Wrote: [ -> ]  But no way I’d send Green or 2027 first round pick for him.  

Thankfully no one suggested that.

(12-14-2023, 04:45 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I was trying to keep Dallas under the tax this year and make it more about Green and less about draft resources.  It could be done differently, but you are probably in the tax and sending a nice pick.

One thing I meant to mention.  Dennis Lindsey was the one who signed Bojan when he moved from Indy to Utah in 2019.

The Lindsey connection is concerning.  I would be disappointed in a trade for Bojan, especially at what it would likely cost.  Seems like another move towards offense and away from defense.  Given that we only need to generate roughly 6 mil (did I get that right?) to get the full MLE, seems like there will be plenty of options to get there.

(12-14-2023, 06:20 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Thankfully no one suggested that.

Ummmm..........

(12-14-2023, 06:31 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Ummmm..........

My bad.  I missed the "or".  Read it as an "and".

I find the forum's views on Green interesting.

While I don't think he's a bad player, or someone the Mavs need to move, I don't see him as a must-keep core piece.

For all the talk that he's going to be so super in the years ahead, I just don't see it. Part of the issue is that his progress (when it comes) is in teeny tiny steps. In fact, he's gone backwards this year.

I know many think he was a "bargain-priced" player, and like him because of that, but he signed at about where I thought he would (based on how valuable I thought he was), so I don't get any warm fuzzies over him here as a supposed "bargain" player (which may be part of why I see him differently than most seem to). Not sure he is, and even think he might be a bit overpaid, although I'm not griping about the deal he got.

His reticence to shoot is showing no signs of going away - in fact, it's gotten worse this year. And his shooting efficiency has gone from superior to mediocre.

He is helpful in some areas, like being active and being a pest on defense, but even his defense is meh-ish (per BR, he's the 11th best Mav as a defender).

To me, he's the SG/SF version of Powell -- his hustle and can-do attitude makes him a usable player, but his ceiling is so low because of all the things he does not do. 

It also concerns me that Kidd praises him for not scoring points. I understand the desire to make your players feel good, but I think it sends the wrong message to give him a pat on the butt for the crap part of his game. As for whether that issue can be resolved, I'm beginning to think it cannot. More and more I am coming to believe what we see is all we will ever get.

(12-14-2023, 06:20 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]Thankfully no one suggested that.

I must’ve misread something, because I could’ve sworn this discussion was centered on a Green/Holmes for Bojan swap.

(12-14-2023, 06:57 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I find the forum's views on Green interesting.

While I don't think he's a bad player, or someone the Mavs need to move, I don't see him as a must-keep core piece.

For all the talk that he's going to be so super in the years ahead, I just don't see it. Part of the issue is that his progress (when it comes) is in teeny tiny steps. In fact, he's gone backwards this year.

I know many think he was a "bargain-priced" player, and like him because of that, but he signed at about where I thought he would (based on how valuable I thought he was), so I don't get any warm fuzzies over him here as a supposed "bargain" player (which may be part of why I see him differently than most seem to). Not sure he is, and even think he might be a bit overpaid, although I'm not griping about the deal he got.

His reticence to shoot is showing no signs of going away - in fact, it's gotten worse this year. And his shooting efficiency has gone from superior to mediocre.

He is helpful in some areas, like being active and being a pest on defense, but even his defense is meh-ish (per BR, he's the 11th best Mav as a defender).

To me, he's the SG/SF version of Powell -- his hustle and can-do attitude makes him a usable player, but his ceiling is so low because of all the things he does not do. 

It also concerns me that Kidd praises him for not scoring points. I understand the desire to make your players feel good, but I think it sends the wrong message to give him a pat on the butt for the crap part of his game. As for whether that issue can be resolved, I'm beginning to think it cannot. More and more I am coming to believe what we see is all we will ever get.

I am seeing this perspective more and more. 

I do think, like Green's biggest fans, that some of what he brings to the table doesn't show up in the box score. The thing is, now that there are multiple motor/energy guys in the rotation, some of those things Green does aren't seeming so special all of a sudden. 

The awkward "do I shoot, drive or pass here" vibes he excretes constantly get more and more annoying as we go. I haven't given up on him getting better with that stuff, but there are options available now that don't need to improve their decision making so much. 

The thing that's really starting to bother me is that the thing we all just assume he's good at, DEFENSE, doesn't seem like something he's all that good at to me. I have definitely seen him make some great defensive plays and have some sound defensive possessions. I know there are metrics that will tell us he's impactful on defense. Idk...he just seems awkward out there to me. 

I thought he would settle into a role once he got paid, and maybe he still will. Shrug. I want him to figure some things out, because he's fast, can handle, can shoot and plays hard.

(12-14-2023, 06:57 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I find the forum's views on Green interesting.

While I don't think he's a bad player, or someone the Mavs need to move, I don't see him as a must-keep core piece.

For all the talk that he's going to be so super in the years ahead, I just don't see it. Part of the issue is that his progress (when it comes) is in teeny tiny steps. In fact, he's gone backwards this year.

I know many think he was a "bargain-priced" player, and like him because of that, but he signed at about where I thought he would (based on how valuable I thought he was), so I don't get any warm fuzzies over him here as a supposed "bargain" player (which may be part of why I see him differently than most seem to). Not sure he is, and even think he might be a bit overpaid, although I'm not griping about the deal he got.

His reticence to shoot is showing no signs of going away - in fact, it's gotten worse this year. And his shooting efficiency has gone from superior to mediocre.

He is helpful in some areas, like being active and being a pest on defense, but even his defense is meh-ish (per BR, he's the 11th best Mav as a defender).

To me, he's the SG/SF version of Powell -- his hustle and can-do attitude makes him a usable player, but his ceiling is so low because of all the things he does not do. 

It also concerns me that Kidd praises him for not scoring points. I understand the desire to make your players feel good, but I think it sends the wrong message to give him a pat on the butt for the crap part of his game. As for whether that issue can be resolved, I'm beginning to think it cannot. More and more I am coming to believe what we see is all we will ever get.

Nail on the head. I've always said I don't think Green will make some quantum leap into the next rising star on a good team. He just strikes me as a player who's just satisfied doing his job. Same with Hardy. Hardy's confidence has waned since they signed Curry if you ask me. Mavs were looking for these guys to be a major part of their rotation. Green is, but Hardy has regressed.

(12-14-2023, 07:56 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I thought he would settle into a role once he got paid, and maybe he still will. Shrug. I want him to figure some things out, because he's fast, can handle, can shoot and plays hard.

I'm the last Josh Green believer on the board.  I acknowledge he has been bad this season thus far.  However, I think he was a plus defender as recently as....last season.  He also hit over 40 % from 3 last season.  That's clearly the two most important ingredients to what we need on the wing playing next to Luka and Kyrie.  

I think it's possible that his game has suffered due to a lingering injury.  He injured his right elbow initially last December and missed a lot of games last season with that.  He missed games this summer in FIBA due to a reaggravation of the same injury.  He's currently out with pain to the same elbow.

Last December, he described it as the result of a play where he tried to steal the ball from Grayson Allen.  Josh said "my elbow kind of got stuck in Grayson Allen's arm, kind of like an arm lock."  He said he couldn't shoot immediately after that.  

The Mavs have never given details about what exactly the injury is other than a "sprain".  Chronic elbow issues don't seem like a typical long-term injury in the NBA but this particular one seems to have affected Josh at least intermittently for more than a year.   He had never missed time in the NBA for an injury prior to this elbow situation.

I think it's possible that its affecting his game especially as he is right-handed.  I think it may make him reluctant to fight through screens on defense.  It would definitely affect his shot.

His poor decision making on offense is independent of the elbow issue.  I hope that improves with coaching and experience.  

Josh Green still has the potential to be a good starter if he can improve somewhat on last season's performance.  He doesn't need to shoot a lot to have a positive impact.  As everyone has already pointed out, he needs to take open 3 pointers when he has the opportunity, play smarter on defense and stop making jump passes on offense when he drives to the basket and can't shoot at the rim.  Dante Exum took many years to become the player he is today.  Maybe Aussies just need more time to develop into elite role players?  Also, he needs two good elbows.

(12-14-2023, 06:57 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]I find the forum's views on Green interesting.

While I don't think he's a bad player, or someone the Mavs need to move, I don't see him as a must-keep core piece.

For all the talk that he's going to be so super in the years ahead, I just don't see it. Part of the issue is that his progress (when it comes) is in teeny tiny steps. In fact, he's gone backwards this year.

I know many think he was a "bargain-priced" player, and like him because of that, but he signed at about where I thought he would (based on how valuable I thought he was), so I don't get any warm fuzzies over him here as a supposed "bargain" player (which may be part of why I see him differently than most seem to). Not sure he is, and even think he might be a bit overpaid, although I'm not griping about the deal he got.

His reticence to shoot is showing no signs of going away - in fact, it's gotten worse this year. And his shooting efficiency has gone from superior to mediocre.

He is helpful in some areas, like being active and being a pest on defense, but even his defense is meh-ish (per BR, he's the 11th best Mav as a defender).

To me, he's the SG/SF version of Powell -- his hustle and can-do attitude makes him a usable player, but his ceiling is so low because of all the things he does not do. 

It also concerns me that Kidd praises him for not scoring points. I understand the desire to make your players feel good, but I think it sends the wrong message to give him a pat on the butt for the crap part of his game. As for whether that issue can be resolved, I'm beginning to think it cannot. More and more I am coming to believe what we see is all we will ever get.

As a pro Green guy, I think the improvements were significant from year to year and with his youth there was potential for more.  He ended last season with a rough couple of months, but I figured he would bounce back this season.  Its very concerning that he hasn't yet.  His offense is what it is, but its the defense that is most disappointing to me.  It feels like he has regressed in that area.  He needs to do more than jump around and get the occasional steal.  It almost has a JRich vibe.  Maybe his fellow countryman can teach him point of attack defense.

(12-15-2023, 10:41 AM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]As a pro Green guy, I think the improvements were significant from year to year and with his youth there was potential for more.  He ended last season with a rough couple of months, but I figured he would bounce back this season.  Its very concerning that he hasn't yet.  His offense is what it is, but its the defense that is most disappointing to me.  It feels like he has regressed in that area.  He needs to do more than jump around and get the occasional steal.  It almost has a JRich vibe.  Maybe his fellow countryman can teach him point of attack defense.

Yeah, the defense is the key.  I can live with his lack of creation on offense or disappearing at times on offense.  If he is a really good defender that he can stay on the court.  Last year I noticed while he would be active and energetic, players could eventually get to their spot and get a really good look on him.  This year his defense on screens has been concerning.  I am not sure if the advanced metrics back up my eye test.   

My vision from his was never a high scorer.  I viewed him as a guy who would play Plus defense, do the Josh Green energy stuff (loose balls, tip balls, a nice pass) and hit open 3s.   Maybe average 10-11 points.   

So defense is my biggest concern right now.

The Clippers have won 6 in a row and are emerging as a contender.  They have wins against the Nuggets and the Kings during that stretch.  As long as Kawhi and Paul George stay healthy, that team is likely to be a top 4 seed in the West.  Kawhi is putting up great numbers.  Ty Lue has figured some things out with that roster.

It's been said way too many times but the West is absolutely brutal.  We could win 45 games and still finish 9th or 10th in the West.  We might need to hit 54 wins to finish in the top 4.  

Golden State should be panicking right now.  Memphis may be dead in the water.  

Brutal.

https://www.espn.com/nba/insider/story/_...ron-genius


Zach Lowe's 8 things he noticed.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/3911...ct-2027-28


Morey gets extended.

Watching a little of the Magic vs the Celtics. Issac...very impressive. He is always injured and hasn't been playing much. His defense though is really impressive guarding on the perimeter. If he could ever get and stay healthy, he is a guy teams wouldn't think twice paying over 20 million a season. Even if his offensive game is pretty limited.

(12-15-2023, 08:21 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Watching a little of the Magic vs the Celtics.  Issac...very impressive.  He is always injured and hasn't been playing much.  His defense though is really impressive guarding on the perimeter.  If he could ever get and stay healthy, he is a guy teams wouldn't think twice paying over 20 million a season.  Even if his offensive game is pretty limited.

I'm watching the same game.  Jalen Suggs appeared to break his wrist after blocking a shot.  They let him back in the game.

He is incredibly tough but he is clearly unable to play right now. 

I don't understand how their medical staff is allowing this to happen.  

I don't really recall a similar situation in many, many years watching NBA basketball.

They later updated his status and said that x-rays were negative. Still looked pretty painful.

(12-15-2023, 08:21 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Watching a little of the Magic vs the Celtics.  Issac...very impressive.  He is always injured and hasn't been playing much.  His defense though is really impressive guarding on the perimeter.  If he could ever get and stay healthy, he is a guy teams wouldn't think twice paying over 20 million a season.  Even if his offensive game is pretty limited.

Isaac/Hardaway would be perfect 

Lively/Maxi
Williams/Isaac/Omax
DJJ/Exum
Kyrie/Green/Hardy
Luka/Curry

This is my dream. You could mix and match anybody. Big defensive team that would still be top 5 offense

(12-15-2023, 10:56 AM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, the defense is the key.  I can live with his lack of creation on offense or disappearing at times on offense.  If he is a really good defender that he can stay on the court.  Last year I noticed while he would be active and energetic, players could eventually get to their spot and get a really good look on him.  This year his defense on screens has been concerning.  I am not sure if the advanced metrics back up my eye test.   

My vision from his was never a high scorer.  I viewed him as a guy who would play Plus defense, do the Josh Green energy stuff (loose balls, tip balls, a nice pass) and hit open 3s.   Maybe average 10-11 points.   

So defense is my biggest concern right now.

You've defined him nicely. This is exactly who Green is on a good day IMO. I've never been high on him really because I think his skill can be replaced. This season, it's already been replaced.

Personally, I think this is the season to use him somehow in a trade where he can still be marketed as young and promising. If you want to trade for a rebounding big man (something you're short on), you don't want to trade away skills you need. I think Exum now fills the role the people imagined for Green. Exum has plus metrics all the way across the board. Grant Williams and DJJ really help team-wise, and Omax is still marinating on the sideline. And while I wouldn't say we are rich in defensive wings, we are at a point where I can't imagine Green will be sorely missed.

I'm fine if Green stays, but I suspect his salary can be used to help get us an upgrade at center or PF.

Brunson, 17-23 fg, 9 for 9 from 3 for a career high 50 pts. Knicks beat the Suns, 139-122. He's a bonafide star now and the Knicks are his team.

Historic night for Brunson. His loss may exceed the loss of Nash. But, I suppose if they wouldn’t have given up Brunson, they wouldn’t have been in position to tank for Lively. Maybe it will wok out.