(12-13-2023, 08:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Scott, would YOU do that deal?
Not sure. Probably not, given how often Kai is injured. Not enough scoring without THJ.
(12-13-2023, 08:15 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure. Probably not, given how often Kai is injured. Not enough scoring without THJ.
If Hardy had taken off this season like we expected, I might feel totally differently. Or, at least I'd be more willing to let go of Hardaway for SOMETHING.
I think Curry could step up a little, but for all the grief Hardaway takes around here about his defense, I believe the drop off to Curry/Hardy on the defensive end would make more of a difference than people recognize. I really do. But, my biggest disagreement is with those who think just giving Hardaway's minutes to Green/Exum would do the trick. I REALLY don't think they'd score enough in that scenario.
(12-13-2023, 08:14 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Wow, this might be the first time I've read an opinion on Hardaway around here that I feel accurately captures the reality of who he is to this team. I might cry some happy tears.
I'm in lockstep with you on the youngsters, too. It's not that I think Hardy is hopeless, but I'm starting to feel like the team is already too good to allow him the kind of learning on the job it's going to take as a ball-handler. He might be a better fit somewhere else.
Yeah, to me having a movement shooter like JJ Redick, or look at what a revitalized Duncan Robinson did for Miami last playoffs, adds so much more value to an offense. Even Grant Williams developing the dribble side-step 3 the way he has is huge. But the guys who can curl around screens and rise up on the move have a different kind of gravity that impacts an offense by bending the defense.
Tim has been guilty of poor shot selection at times but seems to have reigned those tendencies in to an extent and is playing great as the 6th man. I would only move him for a clear upgrade at this point.
(12-13-2023, 08:25 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]If Hardy had taken off this season like we expected, I might feel totally differently. Or, at least I'd be more willing to let go of Hardaway for SOMETHING.
I think Curry could step up a little, but for all the grief Hardaway takes around here about his defense, I believe the drop off to Curry/Hardy on the defensive end would make more of a difference than people recognize. I really do. But, my biggest disagreement is with those who think just giving Hardaway's minutes to Green/Exum would do the trick. I REALLY don't think they'd score enough in that scenario.
Green would not, but I'm not so sure about Exum. He is looking like the real deal. He would be more like Dinwiddie than Timmy on offense, but that worked out fairly well a couple of seasons ago.
Draymond suspended indefinitely
(12-13-2023, 08:57 PM)Jmaciscool Wrote: [ -> ]Draymond suspended indefinitely
It seems like a huge cop out by the league. Even the way Woj phrases it is bullshit. They "want him to take the time to deal with the challenges he's facing". He's a violent asshole. He has a long (and escalating) history of doing violent asshole things.
The league should have given him a minimum 25 game suspension. Draymond is much worse than Ja Morant and Ja had to sit 25 games.
The NBA was likely worried about ruining the Warriors season. They are probably the 2nd most marketable team in the NBA.
So, they made a decision that allows them to let Draymond return in 3-4 weeks once he has apologized enough and gone to some counseling sessions.
The truth is that people like Draymond Green usually end up in prison. The NBA is allowing some unacceptable behavior here because they want to make certain Steph Curry makes the playoffs.
(12-13-2023, 08:51 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Green would not, but I'm not so sure about Exum. He is looking like the real deal. He would be more like Dinwiddie than Timmy on offense, but that worked out fairly well a couple of seasons ago.
Real deal? Yes.
Someone who can run around off-ball screens and get shots off lightning fast, making them efficiently at high volume? Idk, man. I like the chances of Exum helping to CREATE those shots for Hardaway, that's for sure.
(12-13-2023, 10:17 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Real deal? Yes.
Someone who can run around off-ball screens and get shots off lightning fast, making them efficiently at high volume? Idk, man. I like the chances of Exum helping to CREATE those shots for Hardaway, that's for sure.
I mean, I get there is value in that, but who was doing that during our WCF run? That team didn't lose that series on offense. In that case they had an offensive engine of Luka/Brunson/Din, keeping two on the court at all times and surrounding with defensive players. Same concept here except unlike Din, Exum is a plus defender. That allows you to get away with bringing in a Curry or Hardy when needing a little extra offense.
I'm not saying Tim does not provide value to this team, but I would argue that trading him for an equal or better player that brings more size and defense would probably make sense from a fit perspective. I have not watched Dorian much since the trade, but if his defense is close to what it was 2 years ago (and he is currently lighting it up offensively) I think I pull that trigger. It doesn't hurt that we save a couple mil in that trade for the DJJ kitty.
(12-13-2023, 10:47 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I mean, I get there is value in that, but who was doing that during our WCF run? That team didn't lose that series on offense. In that case they had an offensive engine of Luka/Brunson/Din, keeping two on the court at all times and surrounding with defensive players. Same concept here except unlike Din, Exum is a plus defender. That allows you to get away with bringing in a Curry or Hardy when needing a little extra offense.
I'm not saying Tim does not provide value to this team, but I would argue that trading him for an equal or better player that brings more size and defense would probably make sense from a fit perspective. I have not watched Dorian much since the trade, but if his defense is close to what it was 2 years ago (and he is currently lighting it up offensively) I think I pull that trigger. It doesn't hurt that we save a couple mil in that trade for the DJJ kitty.
I just don't know who you play DFS in front of if THJ is how you get him. Exum? DJJ? Williams? He's taking THEIR minutes, not THJ's, right? Some of THJ's might go to Exum and Green, but I feel like most would go to Curry/Hardy, and that's a downgrade imo.
I think DJJ to DFS is probably an upgrade, but not NEARLY as much of one as I would've thought coming into this season.
(12-13-2023, 10:53 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I just don't know who you play DFS in front of if THJ is how you get him. Exum? DJJ? Williams? He's taking THEIR minutes, not THJ's, right? Some of THJ's might go to Exum and Green, but I feel like most would go to Curry/Hardy, and that's a downgrade imo.
I think DJJ to DFS is probably an upgrade, but not NEARLY as much of one as I would've thought coming into this season.
I think the finishing lineup is Lively/DFS/Luka/Exum/Kyrie. I'm less concerned with who starts. You might have Exum come off the bench to make the minutes play out easier.
I see Timmy's minutes going to Dorian and Exum. The second unit just gets bigger. A lot of Grant/DJJ. As long as you have two of Luka/Kyrie/Exum surrounded by shooters/center you should be fine offensively.
(12-13-2023, 11:08 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I think the finishing lineup is Lively/DFS/Luka/Exum/Kyrie. I'm less concerned with who starts. You might have Exum come off the bench to make the minutes play out easier.
I see Timmy's minutes going to Dorian and Exum. The second unit just gets bigger. A lot of Grant/DJJ. As long as you have two of Luka/Kyrie/Exum surrounded by shooters/center you should be fine offensively.
Well, this helps to explain your interest.
I'm not sure I agree it would play out this way. Maybe in some games. I really think the assumptions you're making about offense, while rooted in logic, would set you up for a rude awakening. Sure, Luka and Kyrie (and more and more, Exum) are going to be the straw that stirs the offense, but every night, even on nights when one or all of them are playing well, there are stretches when Hardaway's willingness and ability to get difficult shots off with almost no conscience makes a real, tangible difference for the team.
Your point about the Luka/Brunson/Dinwiddie year isn't lost on me, but there are some things wrong about it. For starters, they didn't play as much pick and roll that year in the playoffs, it was pretty much all screen for mismatch and then iso. Exum, while competent, doesn't not approach Dinwiddie's 1-on-1 play, I don't think. He's probably a BETTER fit in that role because of his defense and the way he moves the ball, but...idk. This might be sacrilegious, but after re-watching those playoff series not long ago, I'm not positive I think Kyrie (now) is better than Brunson, for that matter, but he IS a better catch-and-shoot guy, which I like. I kind of feel like with the Luka/Lively thing, the SHOOTING is just as important as the on-ball competency, though the latter is certainly something I'm glad the team has enough of again.
I just can't get past the idea that trading THJ would mean a lot more of Curry or Hardy. I think the irony is that trading THJ would make the team smaller and less defensive-minded. But who knows, maybe it plays out how you think it would.
In all honesty, I think the Mavs' inability to get a Hardaway/McGee deal done over the summer is one of the more obvious reasons this team is doing well so far.
They didn't want to remove Hardaway because they didn't want him, they wanted to use him to rim themselves of McGee because they THOUGHT Hardy was about to BLOW UP. He was not about to blow up as it turns out, and so thank goodness they didn't get that deal done. I would venture a guess that they might not be over .500 right now if they were depending on Hardy. Maybe Curry would've stepped up and saved them and I'm crazy, idk.
(12-13-2023, 11:22 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [ -> ]Boys, this is the Around the NBA thread.
Giannis scored 64 tonight. Pacers players took the game ball with them to the locker room. Giannis was heated AF. NBA drama lol
Whoops! Sorry!
The Mavs are getting pounded by teams with bigger frontcourts.
They need help.
You can beat tall teams when they streak shooters get hot. But efficient scoring would come and go from game to game for these streak shooters.
You can't always outscore teams who can and will score from the inside every night.
DFS provides some of those lacking on the Mavs. More heft and physicality than DJJ, more speed and height than GW.
Would prefer a bigger player, but DFS is the better option playing small ball C than what the Mavs currently have (Kidd wouldn't play Holmes consistently, GW shouldn't play at 5 at all, Maxi is always out, and DP is DP). Mavs almost have nothing behind DLive. If you don't have a true backup C, you better have bigger rebounding wings.
(12-13-2023, 11:37 PM)Razzmatazz_Hopskidillydoo Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs are getting pounded by teams with bigger frontcourts.
They need help.
You can beat tall teams when they streak shooters get hot. But efficient scoring would come and go from game to game for these streak shooters.
You can't always outscore teams who can and will score from the inside every night.
DFS provides some of those lacking on the Mavs. More heft and physicality than DJJ, more speed and height than GW.
Would prefer a bigger player, but DFS is the better option playing small ball C than what the Mavs currently have (Kidd wouldn't play Holmes consistently, GW shouldn't play at 5 at all, Maxi is always out, and DP is DP). Mavs almost have nothing behind DLive. If you don't have a true backup C, you better have bigger rebounding wings.
This take is what makes John Collins desirable. Truthfully, I am tempted to try and swing for Collins because of his theoretical flexibility but cost and cap implications scare me just as much.
Also, if the roster was comprised of
Lively/Collins/Powell
Williams/O-Max
Hardaway/DJJ
Luka/Curry
Kyrie/Exum
Would I trust Kidd & Co to figure out the rotation with that much flexibility? I'd feel better with Rick Carlisle stirring those rotations for sure!
I know there is improvement in making a deal, but the risk at this point to this team is astronomically high. Like Rondo high...
(12-13-2023, 11:50 PM)SkenfromLMF Wrote: [ -> ]This take is what makes John Collins desirable. Truthfully, I am tempted to try and swing for Collins because of his theoretical flexibility but cost and cap implications scare me just as much.
Also, if the roster was comprised of
Lively/Collins/Powell
Williams/O-Max
Hardaway/DJJ
Luka/Curry
Kyrie/Exum
Would I trust Kidd & Co to figure out the rotation with that much flexibility? I'd feel better with Rick Carlisle stirring those rotations for sure!
I know there is improvement in making a deal, but the risk at this point to this team is astronomically high. Like Rondo high...
You're going to make KL go Draymond on you.
(12-14-2023, 12:13 AM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]You're going to make KL go Draymond on you.
Speaking of Draymond, there's another player I don't want but would rather have than Collins. AND, he's probably a pretty decent buy low candidate all of a sudden.
Mavs talk belongs in the Mavs thread. Not Around the NBA.
(12-13-2023, 07:58 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Do you put any stock in the thought that the difficulty in reaching a consensus argues for delaying any transactional pursuit?
Not really. When's the last time we saw a deal coming in advance. Just because we haven't thought of it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
I'm going to throw out another name today. It is partially about the player and partially about a cap illustration.
Bojan is playing again (33 points last night). Holmes plus Green for Bojan is in the sweet spot where Green's PP is satisfied. The deal leaves Dallas just under the tax in 23/24 (almost as if they planned it that way). It also saves $6.5mm off of the 24/25 cap (BB is only guaranteed $2mm, so you could save even more, but you wouldn't do that absent a major injury). People can debate the on-court merits of turning Josh into an older, bigger more accomplished guy. I'll simply say that Exum's emergence probably makes a crowded backcourt even more crowded. Without Green, you'd have Luka/Kyrie/THJ/Exum as playoff rotation 'guards' (not to mention Seth and Hardy) and GWill/DJJ/Bojan/OMax as 'wings'.
The money is the main thing I wanted to address. The extra $6.5mm is meaningful in the effort to keep DJJ (or use some or all of the full MLE on someone else). Loki mentioned being able to use the full MLE even when the team is a taxpaying team. Yes, but then you are hard-capped if you do. Spotrac has us at $172mm for 13 players next season ($172mm also happens to be the tax line). Add in a minimum for the 14th player and you are about $5 million from the first apron. The TP MLE is about that same $5 million. So, as things currently stand we can only offer the TP-MLE as anything more would put us over the projected first Apron at $179.9mm.
But, if you do the cap lowering deal above you give yourself more flexibility under the apron. You are now about $11.5mm under. You've fallen back to 13 players again (in 24/25) and have to account for another minimum guy, but you are now something a hair over $9mm away from being hard-capped. That extra room might be the difference between keeping and not keeping DJJ (or getting someone like Hartenstein in free agency). Note that Curry is non-guaranteed next year, but you only pick up part of his $4mm salary if you waive him as you have to replace him with a minimum wage guy. The point of all of this is any deal we might do before the TDL should be looked at from both an on-court standpoint in the current season and from a 24/25 cap standpoint if we believe keeping DJJ (or using a chunk of the MLE) is a priority.