(10-04-2023, 11:13 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t really think there is a way to prove that true or untrue. At this point I think games played are going to be the only truth. I don’t feel as strongly as you do about Kidd keeping him down or believing he’s best used off the bench. I’m closer to, I think the starting spot is his to lose, not OMax’s to win mostly because I agree with you that OMax best use position will probably be at that big F spot.
The other rookie, Lively, on the other hand I think he has more of a chance to win the starting position regardless of how Powell plays.
That’s how I see it until regular season games are played (not preseason games BTW).
Yeah Omax's 3 is a little slow and clunky right now.
So either he's destined to be a PF on offense or he's going to have to change up that form
(10-04-2023, 11:13 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t feel as strongly as you do about Kidd keeping him down or believing he’s best used off the bench. I’m closer to, I think the starting spot is his to lose, not OMax’s to win mostly because I agree with you that OMax best use position will probably be at that big F spot.
I agree with your overall point in the post, but to clarify, I don't "feel strongly" that Kidd doesn't believe in Green, I just think there are signs that could point to that. As you say, we won't know until we know, but some are assuming Green's role to a point where it makes sense to them to expect some crazy numbers, contract wise. All I'm saying is that his rookie contract is almost gone and to this point, he literally has not been a rotation player outside of like a 2 month stretch of last season. Can we make sure he earns a spot in the Mavs' (or any team's, really) top 8-9 guys for a full season before we assume he's going to get north of the MLE? That's all I'm saying.
Unless there's an angle I'm not seeing, one of the following two statements is true:
1) Reggie Bullock, one of the worst rotation players in the NBA last year, was still a better option than Green.
OR
2) #1 is false, but Jason Kidd believed it was true.
(10-04-2023, 11:18 AM)Jym Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah Omax's 3 is a little slow and clunky right now.
So either he's destined to be a PF on offense or he's going to have to change up that form
OMax's form almost has a little Kevin Martin to it. Obviously not that egregious but the way he gets into position takes a hot minute.
(10-04-2023, 11:19 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I agree with your overall point in the post, but to clarify, I don't "feel strongly" that Kidd doesn't believe in Green, I just think there are signs that could point to that. As you say, we won't know until we know, but some are assuming Green's role to a point where it makes sense to them to expect some crazy numbers, contract wise. All I'm saying is that his rookie contract is almost gone and to this point, he literally has not been a rotation player outside of like a 2 month stretch of last season. Can we make sure he earns a spot in the Mavs' (or any team's, really) top 8-9 guys for a full season before we assume he's going to get north of the MLE? That's all I'm saying.
Unless there's an angle I'm not seeing, one of the following two statements is true:
1) Reggie Bullock, one of the worst rotation players in the NBA last year, was still a better option than Green.
OR
2) #1 is false, but Jason Kidd believed it was true.
3) There are some weird unwritten rules when it comes to vets/young players. It's not like the Mavs are the only team that operates like this.
(10-04-2023, 11:34 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]3) There are some weird unwritten rules when it comes to vets/young players. It's not like the Mavs are the only team that operates like this.
That's valid, actually.
But, with the way last season went, and how strongly the numbers pointed to the conclusion that "it's time to go with Green because Bullock is baaaaaad" I'd think most coaches would've pulled the trigger.
However, you're right. A lot of those guys would trust the guys who had just performed for them in the playoffs the previous season way, way past the point where fans want to give up on them, and I understand where they're coming from, too.
You haven't really weighed in here - what are YOUR expectations for Green's season and/or next contract?
(10-04-2023, 11:13 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]The other rookie, Lively, on the other hand I think he has more of a chance to win the starting position regardless of how Powell plays.
That’s how I see it until regular season games are played (not preseason games BTW).
I'm still holding out hope for Holmes playing that role until Lively is ready.
https://hoopshype.com/lists/nba-ranking-...s-2023-24/
Top 50, plus players of interest to us...
1. Joker
2. Luka
3. Giannis
4. Tatum
5. Embiid
6. Steph
7. Shai
8. Durant
9. Booker
10. AD
11. Ant
12. Butler
13. Ja
14. Dame
15. Kawhi
16. Lebron
17. Trae
18. Donovan
19. Haliburton
20. J.Brown
21. D.Fox
22. PG13
23. Harden
24. Siakom
25. Sabonis
26. J.Murray
27. LeMelo
28. Bam
29. Zion
30. Ingram
31. KAT
32. LaVine
33. M.Bridges
34. Brunson
35. Kyrie
36. JJR
37. Banchero
38. Garland
39. Markkanen
40. DeRozen
41. Maxey
42. Bane
43. E.Mobley
44. M.Turner
45. Jrue
46. FVV
47. C.Cunningham
48. Beal
49. Wemby
50. Scoot
51. KP
... 69. OG
... 75. Ayton
76. J.Allen
... 86. Tobias
... 88. Bojan
... 90. N.Powell
... 94. Valanciunas
... 97. Capela
Thoughts?
(10-04-2023, 01:02 PM)IamDougieFresh Wrote: [ -> ]![[Image: 81fsow.jpg]](https://i.imgflip.com/81fsow.jpg)
IMO, questionable guards ahead of Kyrie...
21. D.Fox
23. Harden
26. J.Murray
27. LeMelo
32. LaVine
34. Brunson
35. Kyrie
(10-04-2023, 12:53 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]Thoughts?
Ja, Ant, Shai, LaMelo way higher than they should.
Both rookies aren't top 50 players (in impact at least).
Beal, Kyrie, Cade, Jrue, Bron should be higher.
https://x.com/TheDunkCentral/status/1709...96333?s=20
NBACentral (@TheDunkCentral)
Stephen A. Smith reports that Houston had initially been willing to offer James Harden a max contract this offseason.
However, after Harden expressed to Ime Udoka his ambition to win a scoring title, the max contract offer was rescinded
(10-04-2023, 01:06 PM)Ghost of Podkolzin Wrote: [ -> ]IMO, questionable guards ahead of Kyrie...
21. D.Fox
23. Harden
26. J.Murray
27. LeMelo
32. LaVine
34. Brunson
35. Kyrie
Let me cook my full list really quick. Playoff play matters a ton for me. These are a combo of past performance and what I expect for this season. I'm also assuming health.
1. Jokic
2. Luka
3. Giannis
4. Curry
5. SGA
6. Durant
7. Kawhi
8. Tatum
9. Butler
10. AD
11. Lillard
12. Kyrie
13. George
14. Edwards
15. Haliburton
16. Murray
17. LeBron
18. Booker
19. Embiid
20. Fox
21. Mitchell
22. Adebayo
23. Brunson
24. Markkanen
25. Ja Wick
26. Bridges
27. Brown
28. Holiday
29. Beal
30. Trae
31. Siakam
32. Sabonis
33. Paolo
34. JJJ
35. Harden
36. Ball
37. Zion
38. Ingram
39. Garland
40. LaVine
41. Cade
42. DeRozan
43. Maxey
44. KAT
45. Bane
46. Mobley
47. Turner
48. Wagner
49. Porzingis
50. FVV
I don't get triggered on these type of rankings. Pretty meaningless imo.
I don't have an issue with Kyrie's ranking though. The last three years he probably doesn't deserve to be in the top 20. So I am fine with that. I do hope we get a full season of basketball from him and see if that ranking improves.
(10-04-2023, 02:26 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]I don't get triggered on these type of rankings. Pretty meaningless imo.
I don't have an issue with Kyrie's ranking though. The last three years he probably doesn't deserve to be in the top 20. So I am fine with that. I do hope we get a full season of basketball from him and see if that ranking improves.
Absolutely. It has been a WHILE since he even played a full season. I think he'll raise his stock this year, almost definitely, even if the Mavs aren't very good. But, going off of pretty much every moment of his career post-Boston, 35 might be a little high, even.
(10-04-2023, 02:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Absolutely. It has been a WHILE since he even played a full season. I think he'll raise his stock this year, almost definitely, even if the Mavs aren't very good. But, going off of pretty much every moment of his career post-Boston, 35 might be a little high, even.
Honestly I would argue he was top 20 last year, and he did play 60 games. He scored 27 a game, with 5 boards, 6 assists a block and a steal per game. He also was not terrible on defense based on the advanced stats. That is a top 20 resume.
(10-04-2023, 04:04 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly I would argue he was top 20 last year, and he did play 60 games. He scored 27 a game, with 5 boards, 6 assists a block and a steal per game. He also was not terrible on defense based on the advanced stats. That is a top 20 resume.
Ok, but...
60 games. Meh.
Whether or not we want to accept it, 99% of the world believes he almost singlehandedly steered Brooklyn's franchise into oncoming traffic.
What he did after the trade is hard to credit, since the Mavs were worse than before.
I realize there's another side to all of that, but I get why the modern, national meta on Kyrie is so negative, I really do.
(10-04-2023, 04:10 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Ok, but...
60 games. Meh.
Whether or not we want to accept it, 99% of the world believes he almost singlehandedly steered Brooklyn's franchise into oncoming traffic.
What he did after the trade is hard to credit, since the Mavs were worse than before.
I realize there's another side to all of that, but I get why the modern, national meta on Kyrie is so negative, I really do.
I get all of that, but the reality is that all of the Kyrie negativity is off the court (and supposedly out of the locker room as well). He has never stopped being elite while on the court, and if we can get 60+ games out of him, I think he will easily be top 20.
I considered bringing up the unmentionable hyper-politicized things to defend Kyrie, but I'll just wait for everyone to see him cook this year. The last thing we need in here is a vax world war 3. The only other thing I will say is that there is known choker who has requested multiple trades and is intentionally showing up to camp at 300lbs who is ranked above Kyrie.
(10-04-2023, 04:04 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]Honestly I would argue he was top 20 last year, and he did play 60 games. He scored 27 a game, with 5 boards, 6 assists a block and a steal per game. He also was not terrible on defense based on the advanced stats. That is a top 20 resume.
Completely agree. I have Kyrie somewhere 15-20.
(10-04-2023, 04:21 PM)mvossman Wrote: [ -> ]I get all of that, but the reality is that all of the Kyrie negativity is off the court (and supposedly out of the locker room as well). He has never stopped being elite while on the court, and if we can get 60+ games out of him, I think he will easily be top 20.
60+, sure. Emphasis on the +.