(07-13-2021, 03:50 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Collins is too much of a pipe dream. He'll get multiple max offers from other clubs. Not only would Atlanta have to decline to match the offer, which I think they will, Collins would have to pick Dallas over other suitors. That seems like a good way to waste your time and tie up your money at the beginning of free agency while other, gettable free agents sign elsewhere.
Not a pipe dream at all and not a guarantee he will get multiple max offers or even a single max offer. The comments from ATL's GM were pretty weak. It makes me think they aren't going to matching any huge offers. I expect Mavs to offer up Maxi and potentially other small assets in a 2 or 3 way deal. If they don't get anywhere with ATL I don't think they would try the offer sheet route.
The Spurs for sure would be a threat but I think Mavs have shown more of a tendency to go all in on RFA's more than the Spurs who tend to be more conservative. You never know. I feel like Mavs will have Collins as their top target and will go in very hard to get him and try to get him with outgoing salary in a multi-team deal when FA begins. Of course they need to talk his agent into a deal which is why I think they will give a very aggressive offer up to the max. This all happens very quickly and Mavs can talk to ATL before FA even begins to line up the ATL part of the deal.
All that to say Collins is very gettable and I expect the Mavs to have him at the top of their list.
(07-13-2021, 03:50 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]Collins is too much of a pipe dream. He'll get multiple max offers from other clubs. Not only would Atlanta have to decline to match the offer, which I think they will, Collins would have to pick Dallas over other suitors. That seems like a good way to waste your time and tie up your money at the beginning of free agency while other, gettable free agents sign elsewhere.
Seriously?! What a defeatist attitude.
If you don't try on someone, you are never going to actually get better players here. With that same logic, if you tried to make a trade you would go to offer and it say "Oh but other teams have more than us. No reason to waste our time trying to get this deal done when other deals are to be made".
Donnie has broken some of you lol
(07-13-2021, 07:24 PM)cjeter24 Wrote: [ -> ]Seriously?! What a defeatist attitude.
If you don't try on someone, you are never going to actually get better players here. With that same logic, if you tried to make a trade you would go to offer and it say "Oh but other teams have more than us. No reason to waste our time trying to get this deal done when other deals are to be made".
Donnie has broken some of you lol
Seriously. I'm not saying we shouldn't try, I'm saying spend your time and effort on the realistic. Offer sheets are tricky because they can pause your free agency while the other team decides to match or not and in that time period, more viable options could disappear.
Donnie never gave me a defeatist attitude. Cuban on the other hand... Remind me again which one is still here?
(07-13-2021, 06:25 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Not a pipe dream at all and not a guarantee he will get multiple max offers or even a single max offer. The comments from ATL's GM were pretty weak. It makes me think they aren't going to matching any huge offers. I expect Mavs to offer up Maxi and potentially other small assets in a 2 or 3 way deal. If they don't get anywhere with ATL I don't think they would try the offer sheet route.
The Spurs for sure would be a threat but I think Mavs have shown more of a tendency to go all in on RFA's more than the Spurs who tend to be more conservative. You never know. I feel like Mavs will have Collins as their top target and will go in very hard to get him and try to get him with outgoing salary in a multi-team deal when FA begins. Of course they need to talk his agent into a deal which is why I think they will give a very aggressive offer up to the max. This all happens very quickly and Mavs can talk to ATL before FA even begins to line up the ATL part of the deal.
All that to say Collins is very gettable and I expect the Mavs to have him at the top of their list.
If I would plan to match an offer sheet I would tell weak shit like that, to encourage teams to not offer the Max.
Every team just say they will match everything and then just don't.
By the way, who would be able to offer him a max and has any need for him?
(07-14-2021, 02:07 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]If I would plan to match an offer sheet I would tell weak shit like that, to encourage teams to not offer the Max.
Every team just say they will match everything and then just don't.
By the way, who would be able to offer him a max and has any need for him?
Your logic doesn't make sense. If you want to scare teams off you say you are 100% committed to making John Collins a Hawk for life or whatever.
At any rate I don't think they want to pay him a lot of money especially if they get can some value back. I feel like Mavs are desperate enough to offer max. We have maxed RFAs multiple times.
There are two parties you need to convince a) the Hawks b) Collins. Both of them would be convinced if a max contract was on the table (imo). That would probably be enough to back Hawks into a corner and scare off other suitors (Spurs). Collins believes he's a max player. Ya its an overpay but I bet Mavs will send out matching salary so they can operate over the cap. Doing so allows them to spend more money than they would otherwise.
I think if Collins is a 20 mil player and you pay him 28/yr that's less than a MLE-level player's difference. Mavs don't have much in assets to offer ATL so I think a Maxi-based deal that also sends J Rich somewhere would be close to salary matching depending on whether you do 25-28/yr.
Mavs would probably keep THJ then sign MLE (Dragic or someone like that) and call it a summer. They actually have the BAE as well so the main thing is just trying to stay under luxury tax levels.
I'm not convinced Collins is more than just-a-guy. I'm not seeing a star. I'm seeing a good athlete but that's it. A 2nd star to pair with Luka is what I'm hoping for. My opinion of Collins is, he's a level below that 2nd star rung. I hate to see the Mavs tie up cap room with someone who I don't feel lives up to the hype.
(07-14-2021, 09:44 AM)david75090 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not convinced Collins is more than just-a-guy. I'm not seeing a star. I'm seeing a good athlete but that's it. A 2nd star to pair with Luka is what I'm hoping for. My opinion of Collins is, he's a level below that 2nd star rung. I hate to see the Mavs tie up cap room with someone who I don't feel lives up to the hype.
I think this POV could possibly hold a lot of water, though I don’t think it’s certain to be true.
It’s really clear that adding Collins here makes the team better, but what’s not clear is whether we will feel like adding him on a max contract was a good idea after a couple of seasons. When the Porzingis trade and extension happened, nobody could have convinced me that I would look back at it regretfully. But, here we are.
(07-14-2021, 09:44 AM)david75090 Wrote: [ -> ]I hate to see the Mavs tie up cap room with someone who I don't feel lives up to the hype.
Well, the thing about cap space is that it's about to go away with Luka's upcoming supermax extension. So you either use it or lose it. Even if it's an overpay on a less-than-ideal player, it's important to accumulate assets that can contribute now and perhaps be used in later trades. Because any of the remaining powder is about to be shipped on a giant shipping barge back to Slovenia.
(07-14-2021, 10:13 AM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Well, the thing about cap space is that it's about to go away with Luka's upcoming supermax extension. So you either use it or lose it. Even if it's an overpay on a less-than-ideal player, it's important to accumulate assets that can contribute now and perhaps be used in later trades. Because any of the remaining powder is about to be shipped on a giant shipping barge back to Slovenia.
This is my thinking as well and is why I believe Mavs will try hard to get Collins as a Maxi upgrade with some star upside and fit with or without KP. Once you lock in guys this year the next year or two you will probably be operating over the cap and trying to stay under the luxury tax line to avoid penalties. I think cap space is overrated anyway.
Yes Collins would be overpaid but I think he will be movable as the cap goes up over time.
(07-14-2021, 10:13 AM)Tyler Wrote: [ -> ]Well, the thing about cap space is that it's about to go away with Luka's upcoming supermax extension. So you either use it or lose it. Even if it's an overpay on a less-than-ideal player, it's important to accumulate assets that can contribute now and perhaps be used in later trades. Because any of the remaining powder is about to be shipped on a giant shipping barge back to Slovenia.
This kind of thinking is only valid in a world where Cuban will go back to major spending. While I cannot promise that he won’t, I am often puzzled at those who assume he will after not doing so literally since the 2011 CBA. At this point, the team has been run like a small market team (financially) for a decade.
Now, again, maybe he has been waiting for a reason like Luka to go all in. But, maybe he’s just serious about not losing money on the team anymore. If the last few off-seasons are any indication, it seems like he is still trying to be frugal, opportunistic and flexible. If that is the case and the Mavs come out of this summer with not one but two max-level guys who don’t contribute as much as they take, then I think the writing might be on the wall.
Personally, I think a great team can be built by using fiscal responsibility. I think it’s harder in some ways but easier in others. I don’t particularly care whether Cuban is an over-the-cap guy who flirts with the luxury tax anymore or not. I just want the team to move in the right direction, regardless of the approach.
(07-14-2021, 10:11 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I think this POV could possibly hold a lot of water, though I don’t think it’s certain to be true.
It’s really clear that adding Collins here makes the team better, but what’s not clear is whether we will feel like adding him on a max contract was a good idea after a couple of seasons. When the Porzingis trade and extension happened, nobody could have convinced me that I would look back at it regretfully. But, here we are.
It was still a good trade idea just hasn't panned out yet and we don't know how it will end either.
(07-14-2021, 09:44 AM)david75090 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not convinced Collins is more than just-a-guy. I'm not seeing a star. I'm seeing a good athlete but that's it. A 2nd star to pair with Luka is what I'm hoping for. My opinion of Collins is, he's a level below that 2nd star rung. I hate to see the Mavs tie up cap room with someone who I don't feel lives up to the hype.
Also...he took PED's for a reason. He looks small on the court compared to other front court players. Others on here have mentioned that. I guess he just has a small frame compared to most others in the league. I did see him get into it with Ben Simmons and they got into each others face...Collins is only an inch shorter if even that. So he does have some tallness.
Now...I dont know about Collins being able to create his own shot. Many on here believe Max players should be able to create their own shot...myself included. But...Collins is money near the rim and has a good deep ball. Near the basket...he seems to have a really good touch and he hits all those 0-6ft shots it seems. Only issue with the shots near the rim...that close to the basket means you are usually guarded and have a guy in your face. Seems like NBA math guys dont like that kind of offensive shot anymore (a contested 2 pointer that is not a layup or dunk). So...unless Mavs change their style of play offensively...I dont see why Collins touch around the rim even matters. Rather have Luka taking to the basket for layup or lob or kicking out for 3.
I dont think Collins is a star unless an offense was to make him one(Jeremi Grant comes to mind. He went to a team where he could be the star on offense for that team).
Hopefully the Mavs have done their research, especially since they just got a deep playoff run to see of Collins....and they know they have a plan to get their monies worth out of him.
(07-14-2021, 09:14 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]Your logic doesn't make sense. If you want to scare teams off you say you are 100% committed to making John Collins a Hawk for life or whatever.
At any rate I don't think they want to pay him a lot of money especially if they get can some value back. I feel like Mavs are desperate enough to offer max. We have maxed RFAs multiple times.
There are two parties you need to convince a) the Hawks b) Collins. Both of them would be convinced if a max contract was on the table (imo). That would probably be enough to back Hawks into a corner and scare off other suitors (Spurs). Collins believes he's a max player. Ya its an overpay but I bet Mavs will send out matching salary so they can operate over the cap. Doing so allows them to spend more money than they would otherwise.
I think if Collins is a 20 mil player and you pay him 28/yr that's less than a MLE-level player's difference. Mavs don't have much in assets to offer ATL so I think a Maxi-based deal that also sends J Rich somewhere would be close to salary matching depending on whether you do 25-28/yr.
Mavs would probably keep THJ then sign MLE (Dragic or someone like that) and call it a summer. They actually have the BAE as well so the main thing is just trying to stay under luxury tax levels.
You won't scare anybody away.
If the Spurs want him, they will just try - no matter what the Hawks say. And the more you talk big, the more they will offer.
(07-14-2021, 11:21 AM)Mapka Wrote: [ -> ]You won't scare anybody away.
If the Spurs want him, they will just try - no matter what the Hawks say. And the more you talk big, the more they will offer.
I don't believe you? Look Mavs could go in with a max offer and outbid other suitors. Maybe there will be 3 max offers on the table. Who knows at this point. Seems like most ppl think he isn't a max player. Hawks do not want to pay him max.
(07-14-2021, 11:27 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I don't believe you? Look Mavs could go in with a max offer and outbid other suitors. Maybe there will be 3 max offers on the table. Who knows at this point. Seems like most ppl think he isn't a max player. Hawks do not want to pay him max.
I think the angle is trying to make those other teams feel comfortable enough to offer a contract below max so they can retain him in ATL. At least that is what I gathered from what Mapka was saying.
(07-14-2021, 11:27 AM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]I don't believe you? Look Mavs could go in with a max offer and outbid other suitors. Maybe there will be 3 max offers on the table. Who knows at this point. Seems like most ppl think he isn't a max player. Hawks do not want to pay him max.
I don't know what the Hawks will do. But they didn't trade him knowing he will be a RFA this FA, and they aren't the Kings.
The trick in not paying the max is to make everybody else think they can get away paying less.
I just hope the Mavs stay as far away as possible.
(07-14-2021, 09:44 AM)david75090 Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not convinced Collins is more than just-a-guy. I'm not seeing a star. I'm seeing a good athlete but that's it. A 2nd star to pair with Luka is what I'm hoping for. My opinion of Collins is, he's a level below that 2nd star rung. I hate to see the Mavs tie up cap room with someone who I don't feel lives up to the hype.
Kawhi Leonard is the solitary "2nd star" available in free agency from where I'm sitting, and he's out the coming year.
The only advantage to Kawhi's injury for the Mavs' consideration of signing him is that we have our pick next year. Let's just say that whoever is left out when the offseason dust settles out of Green, Terry, Bey, and Hinton will get lots of minutes to develop if we sign Kawhi, because THJ is gone in that scenario, and we'll have very, very little to work with to fill out the roster. I think it's safe to say that our 2021-22 roster will be quite a bit worse than the 2020-21 roster if we sign Kawhi.
Once again, if you don't get Kawhi, go get Portis and Jackson (and Payne and Tucker?) for more than their current teams can retain them for. Tradable assets if nothing else.
My feeling is if the Mavs are going to settle for a guy who's a 3rd star, don't pay him like he's a 2nd star. If all there is is 3rd level stars, scout around and find a couple more in line with the pay level. Try and get more than one. Try not to fall in love and see what's not there. A young player has to be projected a little bit but we shouldn't sign someone on what we wish he is.