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We have 4 years of evidence for Ben Simmons now. His points, assists, and rebounds are WORSE than in his rookie season. He hasn't improved one bit. His playoff numbers are even worse...

https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status...3121381379

Defense is irrelevant when you force your team to play 4 v 5 on offense every playoffs. His offense dies because no one respects his scoring ability, and you can't run the point in the modern NBA if you can't score. Ben+Luka=Guaranteed doubles and traps all game long on Luka. I mean, what's Ben gonna do when he gets the ball from a doubled Luka? He's not gonna shoot.

There's no bigger red flag to me than a player who refuses to improve, who refuses to work on the one thing that everyone knows he needs. Some players just don't have that drive to improve, and he's getting paid the max anyway, so even that's not an incentive. He's a more physically gifted Shawn Bradley.

(08-13-2021, 06:55 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]We have 4 years of evidence for Ben Simmons now. His points, assists, and rebounds are WORSE than in his rookie season. He hasn't improved one bit. His playoff numbers are even worse...

https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status...3121381379

Defense is irrelevant when you force your team to play 4 v 5 on offense every playoffs. His offense dies because no one respects his scoring ability, and you can't run the point in the modern NBA if you can't score. Ben+Luka=Guaranteed doubles and traps all game long on Luka. I mean, what's Ben gonna do when he gets the ball from a doubled Luka? He's not gonna shoot.

There's no bigger red flag to me than a player who refuses to improve, who refuses to work on the one thing that everyone knows he needs. Some players just don't have that drive to improve, and he's getting paid the max anyway, so even that's not an incentive. He's a more physically gifted Shawn Bradley.

What was Draymond going to do when he got the ball from Curry? I guess that didn´t work either...
You aren´t playing 4v5 on offense if you aren´t running the entire offense through post ups and isos. That´s what the 76ers are doing. Embiid in the post/face up. Harris on the ellbow. Of course a non shooting ballhandler will hurt the offense in that system. He hurts the spacing when he isn´t handling the ball and there is not space for him to attack the rim when he has the ball.
Even if Simmons never improves he would still be the 2nd best player on the current Mavs team. Just need to make sure that he is the only non shooter on the floor. Something the 76ers couldn´t do after the Green injury. And again it´s not like the 76ers were losing. Despite the obvious flaws their starting five with Green had the best +/- among all 5-men lineups in the playoffs. Even with his limitations Simmons is a high impact player.
I know that for some reason we don´t care about defense these days. Or maybe it is just a Mavs thing (we simply don´t know better after 20+ years of Don+Donnie running the show). But Simmons is the best defender in the league. Maybe not in the regular season but come playoff time. There is no bad matchup for him. From Trae, to Luka or John Collins. Best possible defender for all of them.

(08-13-2021, 06:55 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]We have 4 years of evidence for Ben Simmons now. His points, assists, and rebounds are WORSE than in his rookie season. He hasn't improved one bit. His playoff numbers are even worse...

https://twitter.com/tomhaberstroh/status...3121381379

Defense is irrelevant when you force your team to play 4 v 5 on offense every playoffs. His offense dies because no one respects his scoring ability, and you can't run the point in the modern NBA if you can't score. Ben+Luka=Guaranteed doubles and traps all game long on Luka. I mean, what's Ben gonna do when he gets the ball from a doubled Luka? He's not gonna shoot.

There's no bigger red flag to me than a player who refuses to improve, who refuses to work on the one thing that everyone knows he needs. Some players just don't have that drive to improve, and he's getting paid the max anyway, so even that's not an incentive. He's a more physically gifted Shawn Bradley.

His physical gifts are without debate, but the offensive holes are an Achille's heel on any team. My limited observation is that he CAN do it, he just WON'T do it.

Dude needs a brain adjustment...

(08-13-2021, 08:05 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]What was Draymond going to do when he got the ball from Curry? I guess that didn´t work either...
You aren´t playing 4v5 on offense if you aren´t running the entire offense through post ups and isos. That´s what the 76ers are doing. Embiid in the post/face up. Harris on the ellbow. Of course a non shooting ballhandler will hurt the offense in that system. He hurts the spacing when he isn´t handling the ball and there is not space for him to attack the rim when he has the ball.
Even if Simmons never improves he would still be the 2nd best player on the current Mavs team. Just need to make sure that he is the only non shooter on the floor. Something the 76ers couldn´t do after the Green injury. And again it´s not like the 76ers were losing. Despite the obvious flaws their starting five with Green had the best +/- among all 5-men lineups in the playoffs. Even with his limitations Simmons is a high impact player.
I know that for some reason we don´t care about defense these days. Or maybe it is just a Mavs thing (we simply don´t know better after 20+ years of Don+Donnie running the show). But Simmons is the best defender in the league. Maybe not in the regular season but come playoff time. There is no bad matchup for him. From Trae, to Luka or John Collins. Best possible defender for all of them.

I don't care if he's Jesus himself on defense, if he's the worst offensive player in the league in the playoffs he'll kill your team eventually.


Two things on Draymond:

1) Ben Simmons can only pray that he ever becomes a tenth of the defensive leader that Draymond is... what makes Draymond special is not just his own defensive ability, although of course he is elite in that regard, but also his ability to raise the defensive floor of the entire team with his on-court quarterbacking. I don't think Simmons will ever be capable of that, it's not his personality (it also requires holding people accountable, including yourself... and we see how Simmons feels about accountability).

2) During their first few title runs Draymond made just enough threes to keep teams honest. Later on he got worse... but he was also on a team with Curry, Klay, and Durant. I don't see those guys on this team.

The biggest Simmons problem isn't even shooting for me, its the complete lack of aggression going to the rim.

He has no post moves, doesn't go down hill. If there is some guy (even without rim protection) in the middle he is 80 % of the time afraid of driving. No post game, no mid post game, no floater, afraid of any contact because he can't shoot FTs.
If there is an open lane to the rim he can cause havoc or in transition. Those things happen less in the playoffs (slower pace) and more attention to detail on defense.

He is even slightly overrated as a play maker, because he can't get deep into the post and create the same passing angles like the Lukas / Harden 's of this world. Top tier passer, but medicore playmaker. He can't put the same pressure on the defense than the elite playmakers.

The Hawks series was the copy of the Luka / Clippers series. Embiid on 116.6 / Embiid off 88.8 Off Rating. Ok Doc Rivers has that weird obsession of running bench vs. bench, and never trying to stagger any minutes. When Embiid is off, Curry and Simmons were off for the most part as well. Which costs the Sixers everything, becauase the bench sucked. Hawks won the series, but Hawks got outscored with Trae Young on the Floor

(08-13-2021, 08:37 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]1) Ben Simmons can only pray that he ever becomes a tenth of the defensive leader that Draymond is... what makes Draymond special is not just his own defensive ability, although of course he is elite in that regard, but also his ability to raise the defensive floor of the entire team with his on-court quarterbacking. I don't think Simmons will ever be capable of that, it's not his personality (it also requires holding people accountable, including yourself... and we see how Simmons feels about accountability).

Completly agree with that. At his best Draymond was a better defender than current Simmons and even last year he was still one of the best in the league. Just need to look at the improved defense of guys like Wiggins or Oubre.
Simmons on the other hand is on another level as a perimeter defender. Green could switch and hold his own better than most bigs in the league. Simmons is guarding the best opposing scorer. No matter the position. Can be a guard, wing or even a big forward. His defense against Trae in the playoffs and Luka in the regular season was probably the best on ball defense I have seen in the non handchecking era (only one in the same conversation is Tony Allen vs Durant).
Thing is that only one of them is available. Not to mention that Draymond is clearly declining.

(08-13-2021, 08:37 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]During their first few title runs Draymond made just enough threes to keep teams honest. Later on he got worse... but he was also on a team with Curry, Klay, and Durant. I don't see those guys on this team.

I think Simmons advantage as a ballhandler and finisher in the paint is enough to make up for it. Green was even more hesitant to take it to the rim and his percentages in the paint aren´t close to Simmons. And if you want to mention the supporting we should also account for the terrible spacing on most 76ers team in the last few years. From the Harris/Horford/Embiid to this years Thybull/Howard lineups. Even the addition of Curry wasn´t enough to make up for it. Especially after Danny Green´s injury.
I do think that a Mavs team with Luka/THJ/Bullock/DFS/Kleber/maybe Marrkanen would have way better spacing than any 76ers team that Simmons ever played on.

If we are talking like KP vs. Simmons is a thing, KP has played only 148 games since 2017 and missed 10 and 16 games in the two seasons before that.

Is anyone confident KPs health will be more reliable going forward?

The recency bias of the playoffs clouds Simmons playmaking abilities and would be the only reason he might be available somewhat on the cheap. 

It would obviously be better if Simmons was at least a semi-capable outside threat, but I still believe he'd be an excellent compliment to Luka.

I do that deal every day just to remove the uncertainty (unlikely) surrounding the KP health issues.  If both guys are similarly healthy, I still think its a wash and that Simmons might still be a better compliment.

I don't dislike Ben Simmons, but, if you want to trade KP for him, are we the Timberwolves that just want to win 10 more games in the regular season to get people to buy tickets... (Not sure we'd do that honestly)

OR...

Are we trying to get to the NBA Finals and win a ring?  

Because if we are the first, then sure, trade everyone for Ben Simmons, but in the end, you'll get to the playoffs and he won't shoot, he won't drive because he's afraid he'll make a fool of himself at the FT line and instead of having the great Ben Simmons, you'll have a non aggresive Tony Allen on a MAX CONTACT who no one will guard past 10 feet.... And at least Tony would shoot it if he was open.... And we can all spend our off-seasons arguing between the camps of "how we can salary dump him for Davis Bertans" and "don't look at what he's done the whole time, no, really, this year our MAX NBA PLAYER will actually learn to shoot a basketball".

Your choice....

Look, if you could trade for Simmons without giving up KP or Luka, then I'm in, but him as a KP replacement... Man, I'm not in that camp as things stand with him.

Also, recency bias means that the recent has more bearing and I think that is VERY valid in his case, on both sides, and so do all of you that want to trade KP for BS because after the bubble you'd have laughed the assertion to salary dump KP.  

The difference?  The greatest complaint against KP is his lack of defense last year, but that's an anomaly and we are trying to figure out if that's the new norm.  

With Simmons, we are seeing exactly what he is and there is literally no legitimate hope that you can point to that he'll be better, so we are counting on something that has never happened, instead of counting on something that has (KP being better on defense).  With KP, there is a valid explanation why it probably will happen again.

There's NOTHING to tell you that Ben Simmons will shoot decent FTs, will not be afraid to go there when it counts, or ever be willing to take open 3s, much less make a decent percentage of them

If I wanted to point out another difference with Draymond, he came into the league as a 2nd round pick, he played limited minutes until he broke out in his 3rd season under Kerr. In other words, he showed his drive to improve, no one handed him anything. Simmons came into the league as a 1st pick, with people calling him the next Lebron. Since then he's improved NOTHING about his game, he's still the same player he was as a rookie.

And even if the comparison was valid, we can look at GS last season for what happens when Draymond is your 2nd best player... it's not a high ceiling.

(08-13-2021, 10:33 AM)ClutchDirk Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/BobbyMarks42/status/...3775790084

I only see a small chance of that happening with Diallo after the recent re-signing spree of the Pistons.

(08-13-2021, 10:09 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]If I wanted to point out another difference with Draymond, he came into the league as a 2nd round pick, he played limited minutes until he broke out in his 3rd season under Kerr. In other words, he showed his drive to improve, no one handed him anything. Simmons came into the league as a 1st pick, with people calling him the next Lebron. Since then he's improved NOTHING about his game, he's still the same player he was as a rookie.

And even if the comparison was valid, we can look at GS last season for what happens when Draymond is your 2nd best player... it's not a high ceiling.

I never get takes like this. Simmons was the first overall pick. Doesn´t make him a better or worse player. Just changes the narrative. One is a disappointment. The other is a media darling because he made it against all odds. I take the mediocre top 3 pick over the feel good story as long as the on court performance is better.
Top picks that never reach superstar level get crucified. Shawn Bradley is actually a good example. Good player. Especially on defense. Never lived up to the hype. Ended up on a lot of posters and now most casual fans think he was a scrub.
And Simmons improved a lot. But I already know that you don´t really care about his defense. Not to mention that he is only 25. It will be interesting to see how his first offseason away from the 76ers staff works out for him.

He wasn´t the 2nd scoring option but I think Draymond was the 2nd best player on the 14/15 championship team. Again. Defense matters. And Draymond was by far the most important part of the Warriors defense. He was the advanced and impact metrics darling of the league for a reason.
Really cannot compare this years version of Draymond to the 14/15/16 peak version. But that wasn´t even the biggest problem for the Warriors. They had a better g-league roster next to Curry/Draymond/Wiggins.

(08-13-2021, 09:49 AM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]There's NOTHING to tell you that Ben Simmons will shoot decent FTs

67% in college.
60% career regular season.
52% in the playoffs (71% in 17/18, 58% in 18/19)

Not great but also not Drummond/DAJ level of bad. Good enough to assume that this years playoff performance (34%) was an outlier.

Ben Simmons vs expectations...

(08-13-2021, 11:21 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]Ben Simmons vs expectations...

Agreed, he is due to breakthrough.  

(08-13-2021, 11:18 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]67% in college.
60% career regular season.
52% in the playoffs (71% in 17/18, 58% in 18/19)

Not great but also not Drummond/DAJ level of bad. Good enough to assume that this years playoff performance (34%) was an outlier.

For a 15 mill a year guy, but not a guy making a max contract who's consistently getting WORSE, even in your post defending him.  

Look if he was 71% in 17-18, 58% in 18-19 and then 70% in 20-21, that's an anomaly...
71% -> 58% - > 34% - looks more like a trend.

If anything you are proving my point.

(08-13-2021, 01:36 PM)TXBamanut Wrote: [ -> ]For a 15 mill a year guy, but not a guy making a max contract who's consistently getting WORSE, even in your post defending him.  

Look if he was 71% in 17-18, 58% in 18-19 and then 70% in 20-21, that's an anomaly...
71% -> 58% - > 34% - looks more like a trend.

If anything you are proving my point.

FT% determines if a player deserves a max or not? Poor Luka. Thankfully smarter people than me and you thought that he was still worth the max extension.
I am proving that I am willing to have an honest discussion. That´s why I am not cherry picking the numbers. And to relate to your take in the KP discussion. Bias is a thing. If you would look up his regular season FT% you would see that he improved them since his rookie season.

I bring up the numbers because that´s the best starting point for a discussion like this. We have a big regular season sample size of Simmons having a mediocre but acceptable FT%. We have one playoff run where the percentages plummeted. First playoff run was a positve outlier. Second one was right in line with his regular season numbers.

(08-13-2021, 10:55 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]I only see a small chance of that happening with Diallo after the recent re-signing spree of the Pistons.

I don't see how they wouldn't bring him back. They freak in re-signed Rodney McGruder for crying out loud...

(08-13-2021, 02:20 PM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see how they wouldn't bring him back. They freak in re-signed Rodney McGruder for crying out loud...

If Spotrac data is correct, they have 15 players under contract. But it really surprises me they didn't resign him yet.