(08-13-2021, 02:20 PM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see how they wouldn't bring him back. They freak in re-signed Rodney McGruder for crying out loud...
Yeah and Joseph, too. They waived both their non-guaranteed contracts, then re-signed them both plus Frank Jackson and Saban Lee, plus Cunningham obviously. So I´m not sure what the plan is there. They have Cunningham, Hayes, Bey and Jackson, who all expect big minutes, plus four more guards. I personally think Diallo will play on the QO, unless Detroi is satisfied with a 2nd round compensation for a S&T.
(08-13-2021, 01:56 PM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]FT% determines if a player deserves a max or not? Poor Luka. Thankfully smarter people than me and you thought that he was still worth the max extension.
I am proving that I am willing to have an honest discussion. That´s why I am not cherry picking the numbers. And to relate to your take in the KP discussion. Bias is a thing. If you would look up his regular season FT% you would see that he improved them since his rookie season.
I bring up the numbers because that´s the best starting point for a discussion like this. We have a big regular season sample size of Simmons having a mediocre but acceptable FT%. We have one playoff run where the percentages plummeted. First playoff run was a positve outlier. Second one was right in line with his regular season numbers.
Hey, you brought up FT percentage as your big evidence that he'd be better (because you couldn't bring up anything else to say he'd be better)...and instead of an outlier, you showed a trend accidentally.
That's a give up post, bro... lol
While I like the idea of Simmons, there are some truths ...
1 A sucky FT% is a major problem when (a) player will have ball in his hands a lot, especially to close games and try to hold leads, and (b) player alters his game to avoid being fouled, in fear of having to shoot free throws.
2 A team can't afford to pay max money for a player who offers great defense but will stifle their offense, because defense-only guys tend to be modestly priced in the NBA market. (It's the same reason a team should not pay big money for an average center who has typical center skills of being able to score a bit inside, defend the lane a bit, and rebound - you can get those roles filled for MLE or less.)
3 A player with NO role on offense is a big problem in today's NBA, because it allows the opposition to play 5-on-4, with an extra defender able to roam and double-team as needed.
Personally, I don't think it's wise to ignore those truths, no matter how much I like Simmons. And it's foolish to assume he would somehow obtain a brand new ability to shoot, if only he was a Mav. It doesn't work that way.
(08-13-2021, 05:22 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]While I like the idea of Simmons, there are some truths ...
1 A sucky FT% is a major problem when (a) player will have ball in his hands a lot, especially to close games and try to hold leads, and (b) player alters his game to avoid being fouled, in fear of having to shoot free throws.
2 A team can't afford to pay max money for a player who offers great defense but will stifle their offense, because defense-only guys tend to be modestly priced in the NBA market. (It's the same reason a team should not pay big money for an average center who has typical center skills of being able to score a bit inside, defend the lane a bit, and rebound - you can get those roles filled for MLE or less.)
3 A player with NO role on offense is a big problem in today's NBA, because it allows the opposition to play 5-on-4, with an extra defender able to roam and double-team as needed.
Personally, I don't think it's wise to ignore those truths, no matter how much I like Simmons. And it's foolish to assume he would somehow obtain a brand new ability to shoot, if only he was a Mav. It doesn't work that way.
I love the idea of Luka and Ben Simmons. Its similar to a complimentary skillset of Jordan and Pippen.
Luka can do things Simmons cannot do and Simmons can do things Luka cannot do yet they are the same.
Luka would also allow Simmons to be on the end of Luka setting him up. There are parts of Ben's game we never got to see in Philly because he played in a front court focused dominated offense.
Luka would open the floor up for Ben IMO.
Please don't insult Pippin, a genuinely great two-way HOF player, by comparing him to Simmons.
Not sure what the hate is here with Ben. He's an elite defensive player, great playmaker, lob threat, rebounder, young. I'd give EVERYONE in the current roster + picks to get a talent like that next to Luka.
(08-13-2021, 09:06 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure what the hate is here with Ben. He's an elite defensive player, great playmaker, lob threat, rebounder, young. I'd give EVERYONE in the current roster + picks to get a talent like that next to Luka.
It's pretty simple. His complete refusal to shoot has basically made all those other things he does completely worthless at the end of games. Who cares how good his defense is if he's on the bench in the last 5 minutes of a playoff game because he's afraid to shoot? Also, I think his attitude is absolutely horrible. His coaches and teammates have been begging him to shoot for years and he just refuses. He would not only make himself much more dangerous if he learned to shoot he would also make things so much easier for his teammates, but he doesn't care enough to even try. It shows a total lack of respect for his teammates that he won't even try. I don't want a guy like that on this team. He cares more about being a celebrity and dating Kardashians than being a great basketball player. He's a prima donna. Hard pass. I don't care how talented he is.
We have a great medical staff, I wonder if that extends to our psychologists? I'd take Ben on the cheap (KP + Asset) but I don't think it is really worth discussing because I think Morey will find a way to squeeze more out of the trade and I doubt they'd want KP as the foundation of the trade.
I don't really see Jordan and Pippen's skillsets as all that different.
(08-13-2021, 09:36 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]We have a great medical staff, I wonder if that extends to our psychologists? I'd take Ben on the cheap (KP + Asset) but I don't think it is really worth discussing because I think Morey will find a way to squeeze more out of the trade and I doubt they'd want KP as the foundation of the trade.
I don't really see Jordan and Pippen's skillsets as all that different.
Another good point. The Sixers asking price has been absolutely absurd. They've been asking for all of a teams young talent plus like 4 first round picks. How exactly are we supposed to match that? Do people think they'll suddenly accept KP when they're trying to get Lillard (which they won't by the way, because Ben Simmons is not worth Lillard by a long shot). Not sure why we're even talking about him for multiple reasons.
(08-13-2021, 09:31 PM)sterlingmallory Wrote: [ -> ]It's pretty simple. His complete refusal to shoot has basically made all those other things he does completely worthless at the end of games. Who cares how good his defense is if he's on the bench in the last 5 minutes of a playoff game because he's afraid to shoot? Also, I think his attitude is absolutely horrible. His coaches and teammates have been begging him to shoot for years and he just refuses. He would not only make himself much more dangerous if he learned to shoot he would also make things so much easier for his teammates, but he doesn't care enough to even try. It shows a total lack of respect for his teammates that he won't even try. I don't want a guy like that on this team. He cares more about being a celebrity and dating Kardashians than being a great basketball player. He's a prima donna. Hard pass. I don't care how talented he is.
Agree to disagree here, no need to go further since we don't have any asset to get close to a Ben Simmons trade.
(08-13-2021, 09:31 PM)sterlingmallory Wrote: [ -> ]It's pretty simple. His complete refusal to shoot has basically made all those other things he does completely worthless at the end of games. Who cares how good his defense is if he's on the bench in the last 5 minutes of a playoff game because he's afraid to shoot? Also, I think his attitude is absolutely horrible. His coaches and teammates have been begging him to shoot for years and he just refuses. He would not only make himself much more dangerous if he learned to shoot he would also make things so much easier for his teammates, but he doesn't care enough to even try. It shows a total lack of respect for his teammates that he won't even try. I don't want a guy like that on this team. He cares more about being a celebrity and dating Kardashians than being a great basketball player. He's a prima donna. Hard pass. I don't care how talented he is.
I've been called the biggest Simmons hater on this board, but it's really about his attitude and price tag. If we were talking about some center named "Len Simmons" who was a free agent, and had the same exact skills (and drawbacks), but he had a good attitude, I'd be entirely on board with signing someone like that for MLE money.
(08-13-2021, 09:06 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure what the hate is here with Ben. He's an elite defensive player, great playmaker, lob threat, rebounder, young. I'd give EVERYONE in the current roster + picks to get a talent like that next to Luka.
I don't see any hate.
I do see people assessing what BS is worth, in relation to his massive salary. That's fair.
He is certainly very good on defense. But max salary to a defense-only, no-offense player is a
massive overpay. That's who he is, unfortunately.
The fact that is he significantly lacking on helping your offense changes everything for the rest of your team, and could really hamper Luka's impact. I don't see the way to change that, if he doesn't really have to be guarded. And in his current form, he doesn't. A player who can't shoot and who shies away from contact is not a guy you worry about.
Most importantly, there's no answer. (I wish there was. But facts is facts.) He's not obsessed to fix his issues, even though he's paid the max with all that that implies. Where's a solution to turn him into being worth the max?
(08-13-2021, 11:00 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]He is certainly very good on defense. But max salary to a defense-only, no-offense player is a massive overpay. That's who he is, unfortunately.
The fact that is he significantly lacking on helping your offense changes everything for the rest of your team, and could really hamper Luka's impact. I don't see the way to change that, if he doesn't really have to be guarded. And in his current form, he doesn't. A player who can't shoot and who shies away from contact is not a guy you worry about.
I think you're overreacting to a bad playoff showing. Calling him a no-offense player is baffling. In his worst season, he put up 14/7/7 while being in DPOY conversation.
Feels similar to people overreacting to KP's playoff performance.
It's not ONE bad playoff showing.
(08-14-2021, 07:22 AM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're overreacting to a bad playoff showing. Calling him a no-offense player is baffling. In his worst season, he put up 14/7/7 while being in DPOY conversation.
Feels similar to people overreacting to KP's playoff performance.
Simmons' ability on defense has nothing to do with whether he is of any value on offense. Neither does what KP is or isn't doing.
And you can't call it overreacting, when that's the response of his own team. They (a) decided he wasn't playable when games count, and (b) want to get rid of him.
At one time, the idea was that he would work his way out of the flaws, and get better. Unfortunately, it's gone the opposite direction, with what appears to be a lack of concern, and they have gradually become worse and worse.
The issue is, where do you even play him on offense? Spot up shooter off the ball? No. Slasher? No, afraid of being fouled. Midrange? No, he won't shoot the ball from farther away than 10 feet. Or sometimes at all. Play center next to the basket? He won't. Screen setter for Luka? That just brings a double-team on Luka, because no one will honor his shot.
That's not a max player.
This the free agency/trade thread, right?
We have nothing on this roster outside of Luka to make a Simmons trade, so....?????
(08-14-2021, 10:48 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Simmons' ability on defense has nothing to do with whether he is of any value on offense. Neither does what KP is or isn't doing.
And you can't call it overreacting, when that's the response of his own team. They (a) decided he wasn't playable when games count, and (b) want to get rid of him.
At one time, the idea was that he would work his way out of the flaws, and get better. Unfortunately, it's gone the opposite direction, with what appears to be a lack of concern, and they have gradually become worse and worse.
The issue is, where do you even play him on offense? Spot up shooter off the ball? No. Slasher? No, afraid of being fouled. Midrange? No, he won't shoot the ball from farther away than 10 feet. Or sometimes at all. Play center next to the basket? He won't. Screen setter for Luka? That just brings a double-team on Luka, because no one will honor his shot.
That's not a max player.
I'd play him as a secondary playmaker playing PF (what PHI should be doing instead of having him be the lead guard). Slasher (not sure where the afraid of fouls are when he averages 5FTA - top 30 in the league) and screen setter (if they double Luka I trust Ben to find an open man or drive to the basket). Creates more penetration and pressure on the defense. Can play back to the basket (his post-up numbers are nice) and has great touch near the basket.
He is a damn good max player (considering there are KP/Siakam/Harris/Kemba getting paid max dollars).
(08-14-2021, 10:48 AM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Simmons' ability on defense has nothing to do with whether he is of any value on offense. Neither does what KP is or isn't doing.
And you can't call it overreacting, when that's the response of his own team. They (a) decided he wasn't playable when games count, and (b) want to get rid of him.
At one time, the idea was that he would work his way out of the flaws, and get better. Unfortunately, it's gone the opposite direction, with what appears to be a lack of concern, and they have gradually become worse and worse.
The issue is, where do you even play him on offense? Spot up shooter off the ball? No. Slasher? No, afraid of being fouled. Midrange? No, he won't shoot the ball from farther away than 10 feet. Or sometimes at all. Play center next to the basket? He won't. Screen setter for Luka? That just brings a double-team on Luka, because no one will honor his shot.
That's not a max player.
Unfortunately, until some of that is solved, that's exactly right. He's not a max player, he's just paid like one. If you would like to keep Luka having clear driving lanes, you will need someone with some gravity on the court.
Right now, Simmons is pretty on par with Dwight Powell as a 3 point shooter, and Powell has basically stopped taking them last year. That's where a lot of people think you can put him in the dunker spot as a roll guy in a P-n-R. Problem solved right? No.
The difference is that Powell is a 78% FT shooter in the regular season and he goes UP in the playoffs to 83%, where Simmons is a worse FT shooter in the regular season and goes DOWN in the playoffs, generally.
And Powell makes what again? 11 million dollars, literally 1/3 the salary of Simmons ($33 million). He's got handles, but I'm not sure we can give him the ball enough on the offensive end to make up the difference. I am BY NO MEANS saying that Powell is the comp with him all over the court...not at all. I'm just looking at him in the dunker's spot on offense, if there will even be one of those with Kidd. Who knows?
One added bonus if we got Simmons that no one has talked about...he's practically the only guy in the league that has shown remote success at giving Luka problems one on one. Him being on our team would be great for 2 regular season games a year and if we met Philly in the NBA Finals.
Time to move on. The Simmons topic is polarizing and right now it looks like we won´t find some kind of middle ground. I don´t think any of us has brought up anything new in the last couple of days. We had the same discussion in a thread that was dedicated to the topic just a few weeks ago.
And just like Mavs2021 mentioned. Mavs don´t have the assets to trade for him anyway.
Edit: Found the thread
https://www.mavsboard.com/showthread.php?tid=1050