MavsBoard

Even after sinking another incredible game winner, Luka still comes across as completely relatable.


https://twitter.com/LeighEllis/status/14...6554407942

(11-06-2021, 10:01 PM)Hypermav Wrote: [ -> ]Love the sad commentary

Immediately before that play they showed Luka’s killshot against BOS from last year and all they had to say was „he looked a lot slimmer back then“ and then laughed. 

Luka shut them up perfectly.

The moment before it goes in.

(11-07-2021, 11:06 AM)JamesConway Wrote: [ -> ]he looked a lot slimmer back then

He was!

I am really grateful the Mavs are 6-3 right now.

In the 311 minutes that Luka has been on the court this season the Mavs are getting outscored at a rate of 11.4 pts. In the 121 minutes he has been on the bench the Mavs have been outscoring their opponents at the rate of 13.0 pts.

It is pretty incredible the team is 6-3 with Luka's lineups getting outscored so badly.

Luka's lineups need to start hitting their shots more consistently...

Luka needs JB to give the lineup a viable ball handler...Frankie can run the bench...

Luka
KP
Powell
Brunson
Bullock

(11-07-2021, 03:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am really grateful the Mavs are 6-3 right now.

In the 311 minutes that Luka has been on the court this season the Mavs are getting outscored at a rate of 11.4 pts. In the 121 minutes he has been on the bench the Mavs have been outscoring their opponents at the rate of 13.0 pts.

It is pretty incredible the team is 6-3 with Luka's lineups getting outscored so badly.

Four other players have also played in Lukas lineups missing open shots. It's a team game. If they made the shots, the teams stats as well as Lukas would look different. The paint would not have been clogged but defenders stretched out to limit the 3 ball. And we would be 9-0 and not 6-3.

EDIT: Yesterdays game shows more what happens when the other four make their shots. Luka wins games.

In addition, if they start to make them better, even at an average rate of the league, the double teams will naturally be forced to decrease, the paint will then clog less, and naturally Lukas scoring under the rim will go up. As long as the other four miss open shots, there is no need to cover the 3, and they can clog the paint and double. The paint has been clogged by additional defender most of the games so far with nothing in return.

(11-07-2021, 04:09 PM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]Four other players have also played in Lukas lineups missing open shots. It's a team game.

I'm NOT saying otherwise. 

But when your superstar's lineups are getting outscored by a double-digit rate you should be REALLY grateful to be over 0.500 at all. 

I am not saying it is "all Luka's fault" but for crying outloud, it is a big deal that his lineups are getting pummeled so far.

(11-07-2021, 06:28 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I'm NOT saying otherwise. 

But when your superstar's lineups are getting outscored by a double-digit rate you should be REALLY grateful to be over 0.500 at all. 

I am not saying it is "all Luka's fault" but for crying outloud, it is a big deal that his lineups are getting pummeled so far.

I think it's a talking point. For last night there was progress with Luka's lineups.

(11-07-2021, 03:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I am really grateful the Mavs are 6-3 right now.

In the 311 minutes that Luka has been on the court this season the Mavs are getting outscored at a rate of 11.4 pts. In the 121 minutes he has been on the bench the Mavs have been outscoring their opponents at the rate of 13.0 pts.

It is pretty incredible the team is 6-3 with Luka's lineups getting outscored so badly.

Well, hell, let's just trade his ass then. Maybe we could get a couple 2nds and a bag of fries. Miss paying his salary next year and save up all that powder to chase LBJ one more time.

OK, enough with the sarcasm...

Luka -11.4
Bullock -12.3
Hardaway -5.5
Powell -10.7
DFS -7.8
Porzingis -16.5

I get that Luka is the "superstar" and the leading talent, but this is a team problem and citing Luka's on/off seems to gloss over everybody's culpability.

(11-07-2021, 06:28 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I'm NOT saying otherwise. 

But when your superstar's lineups are getting outscored by a double-digit rate you should be REALLY grateful to be over 0.500 at all. 

I am not saying it is "all Luka's fault" but for crying outloud, it is a big deal that his lineups are getting pummeled so far.

I agree the problem is somewhere. Just that it is not on Luka. A part of it might be. With a new coach and new scheme and we are almost leading the league in wide open shots, yet are in bottom in shooting, this to me indicates its things other than Luka are the reasons. We saw in last game he still dominates, so i dont think he is the main reason for these lineups not working well. All that being said, the scheme has started to work better now in last game and there were less ackward movements and plays.

I think stats are difficult to interpret, and in particular to the stat you bring up here. I do know that if I started in a lineup together with prime MJ, Kobe, David Robinson and Shaq - I would probably have a pretty good +/-. Probably much better than Luka's current +/-. And im not a better player than Luka. In fact i am quiet terrible at basketball. That stat is a team stat. Each player contributes something, yes, but deducing the players contribution, is very difficult.

(11-08-2021, 10:57 AM)michaeltex Wrote: [ -> ]but this is a team problem and citing Luka's on/off seems to gloss over everybody's culpability.

But this is ALSO a Luka problem and citing the team's on/off seems to gloss over his culpability. 



I feel like I am taking crazy pills. We should be able to look at Luka honestly and his culpability in regard to the team's performance. 

I am NOT suggesting everything is Luka's problem or that he is bad or that we should trade him (that is all straw-man garbage that refuses to engage with the data in front of us). But to ignore that he is DEAD LAST in on/off +/- at -24.4 (next worst is KP at -16.1) is like potentially ignoring a tumor in my lung and saying I just have a "whole body health issue" and I don't need to do anything about that tumor.

One more time: I do not think Luka is the whole problem by any means and I think he is the most talented and important player on the team (and he is my favorite player on the team on top of it all!). But it is very concerning that the team is performing so incredibly poorly when he plays while performing quite well when he sits. This could change very rapidly over the next series of games (and I hope it does!). In fact he led the team in +/- last game at +10. I pray it is a new trend moving forward. We need Luka at his best (as a team player) for this team to really go places.

(11-08-2021, 11:16 AM)burekemde Wrote: [ -> ]I do know that if I started in a lineup together with prime MJ, Kobe, David Robinson and Shaq - I would probably have a pretty good +/-. Probably much better than Luka's current +/-. And im not a better player than Luka. In fact i am quiet terrible at basketball. That stat is a team stat. Each player contributes something, yes, but deducing the players contribution, is very difficult.

You are 100% wrong on this.

On/off +/- would CLEARLY reveal how terrible you are at basketball. Because as soon as you sat and a better player took your place the overall team play would improve.

It would be one thing if you ONLY played with MJ, Kobe, DR, and Shaq and they ONLY played with you. But if there is ANY mixing and matching then your terrible play would become quickly evident in the data. This is exactly why we look at the ON data as well as the OFF data. And because NBA lineups are so mixed and matched, you can see trends of how the team is succeeding when a given individual is playing. 

Sure, there is some coupling that will absolutely be part of things (like Luka+RB has been really bad as Luka+KP has) but when you look at how those other guys perform with each other you are still left with Luka being the bottom feeder.

(11-08-2021, 11:16 AM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I feel like I am taking crazy pills. We should be able to look at Luka honestly and his culpability in regard to the team's performance. 

I am NOT suggesting everything is Luka's problem or that he is bad or that we should trade him (that is all straw-man garbage that refuses to engage with the data in front of us). But to ignore that he is DEAD LAST in on/off +/- at -24.4 (next worst is KP at -16.1) is like potentially ignoring a tumor in my lung and saying I just have a "whole body health issue" and I don't need to do anything about that tumor.

Kamm, I don't want to keep getting into it with you, but I do feel compelled to speak up a bit in defense of some of the posters who are trying to converse with you on this discussion board. 

We do agree on one thing. It does kind of feel like you are taking crazy pills, sometimes, tbh.

"You are 100% wrong on this."

This is an incredibly abrasive way to respond to someone trying to have a discussion. That would be true even if you were right, but even more so when there are two sides. These guys are not saying at all that we shouldn't examine Luka and his faults. That's your own straw man. 


"On/off +/- would CLEARLY reveal how terrible you are at basketball. Because as soon as you sat and a better player took your place the overall team play would improve."

Again, you are responding as if this guy said something remarkably stupid, when your own proposition is far from being some sort of axiomatic truth. On/off +/- is a very noisy stat. Overall team performance, in fact, does not always unfailingly improve the moment one guy sits and a better player comes in. A team's performance is affected by many things, and it's rarely as simple as that. 

"I am NOT suggesting everything is Luka's problem or that he is bad or that we should trade him (that is all straw-man garbage that refuses to engage with the data in front of us). But to ignore that he is DEAD LAST in on/off +/- at -24.4 (next worst is KP at -16.1) is like potentially ignoring a tumor in my lung and saying I just have a "whole body health issue" and I don't need to do anything about that tumor."

Again, what is the aim of labelling these comments "straw-man garbage"? Besides being very rude, it misses the point. These guys are not saying that Luka's performance shouldn't be evaluated. They might be suggesting that you could be overreacting. And that is at least an arguable point. I might think an equally or more apt medical analogy is like getting a small bruise and rushing to the hospital claiming a whole body health issue and going into dire-emergency mode. 

Kamm, you know that my comments are not a personal attack, even though you keep pretending that they are. I am sure that you are a good person, and I am not at all saying that you are wrong to address Luka's performance in this season's handful of games. But it has occurred to me that your points might get a better reception if you approached them a little more diplomatically and less dogmatically. 

I reluctantly make this posting, because it makes me uncomfortable to see this degree of incivility on the board, when it doesn't appear to be warranted. It might even deter some people from posting. Or, maybe I'm the one overreacting, I don't know.  If you don't see any merit in these comments, keep firing away. I'll probably keep reading, either way. 

Kamm, I love you.

Have a question: Is it possible that mavs could have 54Wins at the end of the season and +/- -4,3pts and Luka -11,4 on 25/8/7?

(11-08-2021, 12:03 PM)mavsluvr Wrote: [ -> ]it makes me uncomfortable to see this degree of incivility on the board

It is not "uncivil" to strongly disagree with someone and point out where a statement is wrong and incorrect.

What is "uncivil" is saying "It does kind of feel like you are taking crazy pills" because now you have gone "ad-hominem" and made it "personal" through your own choice to not engage with the discussion about basketball, but to make it about my person. And please stop saying things like "my comments are not a personal attack, even though you keep pretending that they are"...you just said in your opinion that you think I am taking "crazy pills", you just chose to make it personal. You went there. Your choice. You control how you engage with me and whether you want to talk about my positions, opinions, and statements or whether you want to make it "personal." Please stop blame-shifting. I have not made this "personal," your statements have.


These are facts:

1) On/off +/- does not work the way it was stated. So I pointed that out.

2) I then spoke about what on/off+/- does in fact reveal.

3) It is a "straw-man" argument to present my position falsely in order to ridicule it and make fun of it. I have never gotten close to suggesting Luka should be traded. To go there in response to the data I presented is textbook "straw-man" stuff. You may think me calling such an argument "garbage" is inappropriate, but I believe such things are "garbage" because they are dishonest to the position of the person you are engaging with. They have no place when actually trying to engage in a discussion on the issues.

(11-08-2021, 12:17 PM)LukTheShadow Wrote: [ -> ]Have a question: Is it possible that mavs could have 54Wins at the end of the season and +/- -4,3pts and Luka -11,4 on 25/8/7?

Possible? Probably a statistical possibility. Statistically I would assume it would be very, very, very unlikely. 

Like @"DanSchwartzgan" said in a post recently, he was wondering if the Mavs record (6-3, 3rd in the west) or the Mavs net rating (-4.3, 24th in the league) were the real Mavs. It is almost certain those two numbers will start to equalize, though theoretically they might not and the Mavs might be a statistical anomaly this season.

Likewise Luka's lineups might continue to be outscored and the Mavs might keep winning. That COULD happen, but I sure wouldn't count on it.

(11-08-2021, 12:20 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]It is not "uncivil" to strongly disagree with someone and point out where a statement is wrong and incorrect.

What is "uncivil" is saying "It does kind of feel like you are taking crazy pills" because now you have gone "ad-hominem" and made it "personal" through your own choice to not engage with the discussion about basketball, but to make it about my person. And please stop saying things like "my comments are not a personal attack, even though you keep pretending that they are"...you just said in your opinion that you think I am taking "crazy pills", you just chose to make it personal. You went there. Your choice. You control how you engage with me and whether you want to talk about my positions, opinions, and statements or whether you want to make it "personal." Please stop blame-shifting. I have not made this "personal," your statements have.


These are facts:

1) On/off +/- does not work the way it was stated. So I pointed that out.

2) I then spoke about what on/off+/- does in fact reveal.

3) It is a "straw-man" argument to present my position falsely in order to ridicule it and make fun of it. I have never gotten close to suggesting Luka should be traded. To go there in response to the data I presented is textbook "straw-man" stuff. You may think me calling such an argument "garbage" is inappropriate, but I believe such things are "garbage" because they are dishonest to the position of the person you are engaging with. They have no place when actually trying to engage in a discussion on the issues.

You are of course free to address people however you want. 

I just felt that it was important to let some of these other posters know that not everyone agrees with your low opinion of their offerings. 

Again, if I am overreacting, I beg pardon of whomever is offended, including you, and let's carry on.

For the record:

I do not think there is only one way to interpret the data of Luka's lineups being outscored and the non-Luka lineups succeeding. I think it is a concerning fact and IMO it points to some poor play by Luka (but that is my interpretation of something that is disputable). It may not persist and I sure hope it doesn't. I think if it persists the Mavs record will eventually tank, I don't think Luka lineups can consistently get outscored while the Mavs win games. But I might be wrong.