Good that he finally uses his power behind the scenes but it was a HUGE screwup from Luka that he didn’t force the idiots in our front office to keep Brunson no matter the cost last summer.
(01-18-2023, 11:51 AM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]it was a HUGE screwup from Luka that he didn’t force the idiots in our front office to keep Brunson no matter the cost last summer.
That ship had sailed. No one could stop that from happening at that point.
(01-18-2023, 12:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That ship had sailed. No one could stop that from happening at that point.
5 year deal blows everything out of the water financially. Conley did the same a few years ago when he used Cuban for leverage.
(01-18-2023, 12:10 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]5 year deal blows everything out of the water financially. Conley did the same a few years ago when he used Cuban for leverage.
If you are old and on your last legs, sure. But if you are 25, then 5 years takes you past your prime and the odds of getting a big deal again go down. JB wants to be on the market again when he is 28, not when he is 30.
(01-18-2023, 12:01 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That ship had sailed. No one could stop that from happening at that point.
Nope, this is not factual. Just your speculation. You might be right, and the opposite is speculation, too, but it's disingenuous to state it factually like this.
I feel just as strongly that a max deal definitely would've kept him in Dallas, for example. But the truth is that it wasn't offered. So, we'll never know (and that's sad).
(01-18-2023, 12:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But the truth is that all we KNOW is that there wasn't an opportunity given for it to be offered.
The reporting universally is that the Mavs were never given the opportunity to give a final offer. JB initially accepted a final meeting with the Mavs (reported by Stein) and then JB backed out and refused that meeting (reported by Stein).
Sure, the Mavs had a number they didn't want to exceed, but their appeal for a final meeting points to them being willing to potentially do whatever was needed at the 11th hour. JB chose to play in NYK rather than hear a final offer from the Mavs.
The ship had sailed. The Mavs had already screwed things up in the years prior. It was too late.
RE: Luka's Desire
If I am the management of the Mavs I hear this desire, but I do not do ANYTHING this TDL unless it is a move for long term asset improvement. Luka pissed in the short term is much better than Luka pissed in two years. Do everything to make sure Luka isn't pissed in two years.
(01-18-2023, 12:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The reporting universally is that the Mavs were never given the opportunity to give a final offer.
No, that's your interpretation of what was reported. Mine was (and is) that all parties involved knew what the offers on the table were, and that the dollar amounts weren't changing (which was the most explicitly reported thing of all). That "last minute meeting" and the subsequent announcement that they weren't happening, always rang odd to me, as though it was a simple matter of misreporting and then correction from the people who matter (Brunson's team). But, my take was that if it was real in the first place, it was just going to be a dog and pony show to make Brunson feel "wanted" (at VanVleet money, of course, because THAT was clear reporting).
Rightly, Brunson told them where they could shove that nonsense.
(01-18-2023, 12:51 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The ship had sailed. The Mavs had already screwed things up in the years prior. It was too late.
I can do this, too, watch:
If the Mavs had offered a bigger contract than NY, Brunson might still be here. At the very least, NY would've had to raise their offer. A max contract offer would've been better than losing him for nothing, and it's so stupid that they offered less than NY. We'll never know how that might've changed things, and saying otherwise is silly.
(01-18-2023, 01:05 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]That "last minute meeting"
My interpretation of that meeting was always that it was just an attempt by Brunson/NY to avoid tampering charges. Mavs never seemed to be on their way to NY (meeting was reportedly cancelled at last minute, but Mavs were still all in Dallas).
(01-18-2023, 01:08 PM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]My interpretation of that meeting was always that it was just an attempt by Brunson/NY to avoid tampering charges. Mavs never seemed to be on their way to NY (meeting was reportedly cancelled at last minute, but Mavs were still all in Dallas).
Could be. I remember we speculated about this at the time.
(01-18-2023, 01:05 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]No, that's your interpretation of what was reported.
Yes, some of it is "interpretation" from both of us, but I feel you are leaving out data and info.
1) Cuban explicitly said as much (no chance to offer), but of course I assume you wouldn't trust Cuban.
2) I followed this all VERY closely in June and July to get an accurate picture of everything. The reporting was that the Mavs made a decision the summer of 2021 when management was in flux (Donnie out, Nico in) to NOT offer JB the max extension. The Mavs internal belief at that time was they would have the chance to trade him at the TDL but if they didn't he would be gone in FA. The Mavs had gotten the sense from JB and his camp more than a year before he left that he was angling for NYK. They gambled by thinking they could trade him. They failed to realize that no one in the league would trade for him because everyone knew he was going to NYK and would be a rental.
The Mavs made massive mistakes with the JB situation, but by the time June rolled around it was WAY TOO LATE. The ship had sailed.
My sources tell me we have offered Green and Hardy for Goran Dragic.
(01-18-2023, 01:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]The Mavs made massive mistakes with the JB situation, but by the time June rolled around it was WAY TOO LATE. The ship had sailed.
Until it is reported "we offered more than NY" or "we wanted to offer more than NY" I think this is not factual. NOTHING other than something to effect of what I just laid out, in definitive black and white, will change that.
And I'll tell you this: IF Cuban HAD offered/intended to offer more, we'd know it, because he'd have told us 10 times by now. That's my opinion, of course, but it certainly would've been in his best interest to trumpet that intention after the fact, even if it was a lie. Instead, the "Fred VanVleet money" reference, which we now know was borderline insulting, has just been allowed to sit there.
I think you might be right. I think at least part of Brunson's heart wanted the NY offer to be the best. But, it's not like he hated it here, and because the NY offer clearly WAS the best, we factually don't know what effect an offer from Dallas that conveyed a "wow" level of respect for him might've accomplished. I believe the logic of this is self-evident.
(01-18-2023, 01:25 PM)Chicagojk Wrote: [ -> ]My sauces tell me we have offered Green and Hardy for Goran Dragic.
FIFY. If it’s not “sauces” it can’t be true!
Agree 100% with KL on the Brunson stuff. I also agree with Kamm, I really truly hope they don’t make a short-term move at the expense of the future. Let Luka be upset. Save ammo for the summer. Unless we can grease for a true difference maker.
(01-18-2023, 01:24 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Yes, some of it is "interpretation" from both of us, but I feel you are leaving out data and info.
1) Cuban explicitly said as much (no chance to offer), but of course I assume you wouldn't trust Cuban.
2) I followed this all VERY closely in June and July to get an accurate picture of everything. The reporting was that the Mavs made a decision the summer of 2021 when management was in flux (Donnie out, Nico in) to NOT offer JB the max extension. The Mavs internal belief at that time was they would have the chance to trade him at the TDL but if they didn't he would be gone in FA. The Mavs had gotten the sense from JB and his camp more than a year before he left that he was angling for NYK. They gambled by thinking they could trade him. They failed to realize that no one in the league would trade for him because everyone knew he was going to NYK and would be a rental.
The Mavs made massive mistakes with the JB situation, but by the time June rolled around it was WAY TOO LATE. The ship had sailed.
The effort to trade JB for #10 that summer corresponds to your scenario as well. I think the other place they got outmaneuvered was the mistaken belief NY would need to deal with Dallas in a S&T. The business of what we offered or whether we offered is just window dressing to save some PR face. In the end, JB was gone either way.
It wouldn’t have been some massive asset, but there are some NY assets that would have come in handy right about now. Since NY trades are the topic of the day, the other thing I’d mention is it appeared to me that Cuban tried to be ‘less childish’ than usual through this process. Not saying he nailed it, but CAA is a massive agency and you never know when you might want to revisit trading for some of the people you were targeting in a Brunson S&T. So, whether he was coached to grow up a little or figured it out on his own, I thought it was important that he didn’t throw his usual tantrum.
(01-18-2023, 02:03 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]The effort to trade JB for #10 that summer corresponds to your scenario as well. I think the other place they got outmaneuvered was the mistaken belief NY would need to deal with Dallas in a S&T. The business of what we offered or whether we offered is just window dressing to save some PR face. In the end, JB was gone either way.
It wouldn’t have been some massive asset, but there are some NY assets that would have come in handy right about now. Since NY trades are the topic of the day, the other thing I’d mention is it appeared to me that Cuban tried to be ‘less childish’ than usual through this process. Not saying he nailed it, but CAA is a massive agency and you never know when you might want to revisit trading for some of the people you were targeting in a Brunson S&T. So, whether he was coached to grow up a little or figured it out on his own, I thought it was important that he didn’t throw his usual tantrum.
Great thoughts.
Now back to Luka on this thread.... which is my fault....
(01-18-2023, 02:03 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]the other thing I’d mention is it appeared to me that Cuban tried to be ‘less childish’ than usual through this process. Not saying he nailed it, but CAA is a massive agency and you never know when you might want to revisit trading for some of the people you were targeting in a Brunson S&T. So, whether he was coached to grow up a little or figured it out on his own, I thought it was important that he didn’t throw his usual tantrum.
I think this could go some ways towards explaining some of what doesn't connect for me.
BUT, I still think you're all thinking from a logical starting point that MAXING OUT Brunson was never and should never have been an option considered. For me, what actually played out is worse than that. The second they figured out NY wasn't going to "need" to sign and trade, that stupid, crazy dollar offer should've been made officially. And if it was, it should've been made publicly.
(01-18-2023, 02:07 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Now back to Luka on this thread.... which is my fault....
Not your fault. I don't need much of an excuse to wallow in Brunson misery.
I will be doing this for a decade, at least.
(01-18-2023, 02:09 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]that stupid, crazy dollar offer should've been made officially. And if it was, it should've been made publicly.
Why does such an offer need to be public? What does that gain the organization other than less ire from fans? Everyone in the industry knows what happened. CAA knows. JB knows. Like DanS is saying, good on Cuban for not being a child about it all and potentially burning bridges that would hurt the Mavs in the long run.
(01-18-2023, 02:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Why does such an offer need to be public? What does that gain the organization other than less ire from fans?
It doesn't. But, from my seat it
would need to be public for you to present the statement you repeated as if it were
fact. The truth is that you don't know that it is factual. Period.