MavsBoard

(01-18-2023, 12:37 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Nope, this is not factual. Just your speculation. You might be right, and the opposite is speculation, too, but it's disingenuous to state it factually like this.

So true. Thank you.

We can't know what (if anything) would have changed the outcome. As you note, it's disingenuous to say how Brunson would have proceeded, if a much more aggressive financial offer had come from the Mavs. Anyone saying they KNOW is just pretending they know more than they do.

I do recall reports early in the off-season that the Mavs had put $80M-$90M on the table, and at that point they were confident they had Brunson wrapped up. Obviously NY came over the top with numbers that blew that offer out of the water - and there's plenty of indication that the Mavs didn't reciprocate. We don't know, of course - but the PUBLIC posture is that they were waiting and assuming they had a last in-person chance to negotiate, and then didn't get it.

The Mavs' whine that Brunson didn't meet with them again, doesn't mean he wasn't open to a much bigger offer yet. No one on the Mavs has said they ever offered him as much or more than NY did. And if they wanted to offer more, yet couldn't figure out a way to get such a number to him without him having to come see them to get it, then (a) shame on them for being such dolts, where they can't even figure out how to make an offer (and they need a new FO that's competent), but (b) I don't really believe that spin by the Mavs anyhow.

Luka demands short-term upgrades from short sighted owner with old people fetish. What could possibly go wrong.

Hello darkness my old friend.

(01-18-2023, 02:23 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The truth is that you don't know that it is factual.

Where did I say it was "FACT"? Nowhere. 

You are projecting that into my statements. I cannot possibly put "IMO" after everything I post on here. I rarely use the word "FACT" on here and when I do it is almost exclusively for numbers. 

I think your read of the situation is wrong and I think you are ignoring things that have been reported. I trust what has been reported because otherwise I would have literally nothing to go on. I am not saying everything reported is "FACT" (not at all). But I do think it gets us a lot closer to the truth than just following our wounded hearts.

(01-18-2023, 12:10 PM)JamesConway912 Wrote: [ -> ]5 year deal blows everything out of the water financially. Conley did the same a few years ago when he used Cuban for leverage.

Brunson probably wanted a 3+1 (PO) so he could cash in on a massive contract during his prime.  I'm not sure a money whip would have kept him.

(01-18-2023, 02:03 PM)DanSchwartzgan Wrote: [ -> ]The effort to trade JB for #10 that summer corresponds to your scenario as well.

 
That didn't happen in the 2021 summer of the change-over to Nico. In the summer of 2021, when Nico came in, they had no pick and sat out the draft.

What you describe happened in 2020, following JB's 2nd year in the league, when the Mavs had picks.

"I think the other place they got outmaneuvered was the mistaken belief NY would need to deal with Dallas in a S&T."

Good observation. We know for a fact that neither NY nor JB had to deal with Cuban, for either a S&T or to get the deal JB wanted. But if Cuban assumed they did (as it appears), then his whole approach was based on a failure to properly read the cards -- or to properly play the hand he had. So he made it easy for JB to leave, waiting to play hardball and force a better outcome when the others were going on without him.

(01-18-2023, 02:47 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]So true. Thank you.

We can't know what (if anything) would have changed the outcome. As you note, it's disingenuous to say how Brunson would have proceeded, if a much more aggressive financial offer had come from the Mavs. Anyone saying they KNOW is just pretending they know more than they do.

I do recall reports early in the off-season that the Mavs had put $80M-$90M on the table, and at that point they were confident they had Brunson wrapped up. Obviously NY came over the top with numbers that blew that offer out of the water - and there's plenty of indication that the Mavs didn't reciprocate. We don't know, of course - but the PUBLIC posture is that they were waiting and assuming they had a last in-person chance to negotiate, and then didn't get it.

The Mavs' whine that Brunson didn't meet with them again, doesn't mean he wasn't open to a much bigger offer yet. No one on the Mavs has said they ever offered him as much or more than NY did. And if they wanted to offer more, yet couldn't figure out a way to get such a number to him without him having to come see them to get it, then (a) shame on them for being such dolts, where they can't even figure out how to make an offer (and they need a new FO that's competent), but (b) I don't really believe that spin by the Mavs anyhow.

Agreed. 

My (speculative) take, based on my read of everything we heard at the time is that: 

A) The Mavs wanted him back at VanVleet money, but they would've rather worked a sign and trade than go over that amount and viewed that as their fallback.

B) They didn't believe NY could pull off creating the necessary cap space to avoid working with them. NY showed them how easily that's done for a front office of average competence.

C) Once it became clear (starting on draft night) that NY would be able to carve out space, the Mavs had loads of time to reflect on what the NY offer was likely to be and whether they wanted to compete with that, financially. They ultimately chose not to do so, probably hoping Brunson would "realize" leaving a WCF team for a little more money was silly. I put "realize" in quotes because I don't think this was a very smart hope on their part. The chief factor in any job offer is remuneration. 

D) Meanwhile, all the stuff about Brunson's childhood connection to his hometown Knicks was very real, as was the recently made relationship with his father and the fact that his former agent and family friend was running the Knicks. I think it's very reasonable to conclude that part of him was really hoping NY's offer would be the best. I do not think it's reasonable to assume he was so enamored with the idea of going "home" that he wouldn't be able to make the best business decision, had the offers been different. He might've been "NY or bust" but he easily might not have felt that way if presented with a max contract, for example. 

E) Once the Mavs saw the writing on the wall with C and D, they reasoned that while Brunson might be worth north of VanVleet money to NY, where he'd be the main engine of the offense, he sadly wasn't worth that large amount (plus luxury tax) here, where he'd always have some positional overlap with Luka. There is some validity to this thinking, but...

F) The Mavs were wrong about point E. Way, way wrong. Not only was Brunson a hugely underrated part of the team's success (he's still being underrated right this second, as I type this), when you're already in the tax and your young superstar's rookie max extension is kicking in the following season, you simply cannot allow your 2nd best player, someone I'm now confident to call the team leader based on the drop-off in hard play and cohesion this year, to walk out of the door for nothing. You have to offer him the most money you possibly can to prevent that nightmare from becoming reality, imo. 

Maybe Brunson leaves anyway. What @"Kammrath" is convinced was the case might have ultimately been the case. But I think most of the people arguing for that would've been mortified if the Mavs had brought Brunson back on a bigger contract than he got in NY, let alone a MAX. I, personally, would not have criticized that, due to the circumstances, so I would've been loud, fast and public in an attempt to make such an offer clear.

With this Luka news, MBT are finally on the clock.  I'd expect Luka to start asking to be traded in the '24-25 season if we don't get our act together.

(01-18-2023, 03:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]With this Luka news, MBT are finally on the clock.  I'd expect Luka to start asking to be traded in the '24-25 season if we don't get our act together.

It's possible. Hell, anything is possible in this player empowerment era. 

But, my gut is with @"DanSchwartzgan" on this. I feel like he sticks it out to the end of this deal to get his super max contract and then finds an escape route. 

And just so you don't think I'm trying to give the Mavs a break, I'm currently about 80% sure he's in another uniform a couple of seasons after signing that deal.

(01-18-2023, 03:17 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's possible. Hell, anything is possible in this player empowerment era. 

But, my gut is with @"DanSchwartzgan" on this. I feel like he sticks it out to the end of this deal to get his super max contract and then finds an escape rout. 

And just so you don't think I'm trying to give the Mavs a break, I'm currently about 80% he's in another uniform a couple of seasons after signing that deal.

It's a solid theory, but he's going to be the face of the league so his shoe deals and other endorsements can help bridge his payroll gap.  It's another reason to get out of Dallas and into a bigger market.

The only thing scarier than Luka asking for a trade is Mark Cuban being the shot caller for what happens after that.

Hope we luck into a home run deal and are able to right the ship before it ever gets to that point.

(01-18-2023, 03:14 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]With this Luka news, MBT are finally on the clock.  I'd expect Luka to start asking to be traded in the '24-25 season if we don't get our act together.

There's every reason to think Luka will stay here AT LEAST long enough to sign his 3rd contract here - the financial incentives are too massive to think he would do otherwise. As that one winds down, however ...

But while he's here, that doesn't mean he's going to be patient with an inept front office that gets outperformed by all the competition, when it comes to roster-building to put talent around him. As we see with how he reacts to the refs, once he think he's not getting a fair shake, he's not likely to be quiet and suffer in silence.

I think if Cuban doesn't hire TOP front office talent and get out of the way, Luka will eventually make him look really bad. The sooner the better, as far as the impact on Cuban's reputation and the possibility of keeping Luka to the end of his career.

One other thing that should be a factor (although I don't trust Cuban to recognize it until it's too late) -- Luka talks like he won't play 20 years. So even if he never leaves, there's another clock that's ticking down, and faster than we would prefer.

(01-18-2023, 04:16 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]There's every reason to think Luka will stay here AT LEAST long enough to sign his 3rd contract here - the financial incentives are too massive to think he would do otherwise. As that one winds down, however ...

But while he's here, that doesn't mean he's going to be patient with an inept front office that gets outperformed by all the competition, when it comes to roster-building to put talent around him. As we see with how he reacts to the refs, once he think he's not getting a fair shake, he's not likely to be quiet and suffer in silence.

I think if Cuban doesn't hire TOP front office talent and get out of the way, Luka will eventually make him look really bad. The sooner the better, as far as the impact on Cuban's reputation and the possibility of keeping Luka to the end of his career.

One other thing that should be a factor (although I don't trust Cuban to recognize it until it's too late) -- Luka talks like he won't play 20 years. So even if he never leaves, there's another clock that's ticking down, and faster than we would prefer.

Not getting to that 3rd contract will leave money on the table, but Luka is never going to hurt for money and he is used to winning.  The problem the Mavs have is that they really haven't gotten better and have seemingly taken a step back this year and don't have a lot of ways to get to contention in the near term.  I'm just not sure Luka is going to have the patience to get to a supermax especially when he can bridge that gap in bigger markets which would only be bolstered by winning championships.  

I think the theory of getting to the 3rd contract is sound, but if this team building exercise keeps going in the same direction, all bets are off.

Luka might not want to play for 20 years as he said and you pointed out, but we also have to consider how far ahead of the curve he is.  He might already be in his prime and he is struggling to keep this team at .500.

Both MacMahon and Cuban can be technically correct here. 

Luka wouldn't talk to Mavs management directly, he would go through Duffy and other channels. 

So Tim's reporting is likely accurate and Cuban is likely technically right that Luka hasn't done any of the above directly.

(01-18-2023, 05:02 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]https://twitter.com/espn_macmahon/status...9093144576

Cuban is a liar and pretty much every story he's ever denied has turned out to be true. I still remember "total bullshit", Mark.

Does anyone still believe Mark “we can pay him more than anyone else” Cuban?

(01-18-2023, 05:14 PM)RoyTarpleysGhost Wrote: [ -> ]Does anyone still believe Mark “we can pay him more than anyone else” Cuban?

Technically Cubes wasn't wrong.

The idea that Cuban is just playing semantics games (hiding behind who said what to whom) does not make him truthful. In that case, he's still using words intended to deceive us and make us doubt what's truly going on.

And he said "Tim McMahon got it dead wrong" which would still be a total lie, if the only mistake is simply whose mouth might have said those words. Because the source is still the same (ie, it came from Luka) and the meaning is still the same too - that Luka's not satisfied with what Cuban is doing and is pushing for action.

(01-18-2023, 06:02 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]The idea that Cuban is just playing semantics games (hiding behind who said what to whom) does not make him truthful. In that case, he's still using words intended to deceive us and make us doubt what's truly going on.

And he said "Tim McMahon got it dead wrong" which would still be a total lie, if the only mistake is simply whose mouth might have said those words. Because the source is still the same (ie, it came from Luka) and the meaning is still the same too - that Luka's not satisfied with what Cuban is doing and is pushing for action.

All that aside, Luka's body language has shown his dissatisfaction for a while now and Cuban would be a fool to have not noticed it.