(03-02-2022, 02:47 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]But that's what I'm trying to point out. At this point it's up to his teammates to score off of his passes, not for Luka to pass more. He's 3rd (17.2) in the league in potential assists. The only two higher are CP3 (19.4) and Harden (18.5). CP3 has the exact same passes made per game as Luka (57.1 vs 57.4).
Luka is already making smart deliberate passes and is up there with the best in terms of setting people up. And that's with him seeing the most double teams in the league. If everyone made their shots, teams can't reliably double Luka. Thus it would increase his FG% because he's getting much better looks. That is without him touching his FG attempts.
I addressed the potential assist thing in my initial post. Pass less to the open man at the 3pt line and more to the open man at the rim. Collapse the defense and get the higher % shot. Bam, less potential assists and more assists. This is still a personnel issue cause it is hardly a given that Powell converts under the rim (over the rim he does well because he doesn’t have to hold the ball for more than a second), but I digress. Basically if you’re mostly attempting to get your assists from a 3, you should expect more potential assists!
Another thing, he’s played with most of these guys since entering the league. If he makes the right play every time, how is it that he has so many potential assists?
(03-02-2022, 02:38 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]@"Kammrath" and @"ItsGoTime", you're both right, of course.
However, the reason Luka's turnovers are so high lately is (mostly) because teams are playing him to pass, not to shoot. They're sitting on the corners, for example, and playing lots of his favorite passing lanes as well as some of his go-to scoring moves (without having to commit multiple defenders).
I think you can make a great argument that most of the turnovers are simply times when he should have shot instead of passed. The bottom line for me is that to get to the next level, he needs to make more of his shots. That might seem obvious and not necessary to state, but the point is that I'm not sure the answer is for him to limit his attempts. That will probably make him more efficient, but I don't think the offense is ready to function yet if he simply allows himself to be a non-factor on too many possessions.
This literally leads into what I was saying from the beginning. Luka was able to make those cross-court passes cause the league rarely saw it before. Now that teams have seen it, they are adapting. HE NEEDS TO ADAPT NOW. Stop throwing that pass (as much) and figure out different ways to get your team involved. I have been suggesting 1 change he can make in multiple posts. I hardly think lowering his shots to say 18 pg where he completely cuts out the long 3 with 18 secs on the clock (if that is because he’s tired, throw it to SD or JB), along with a few other poor decision shots he takes.
(03-02-2022, 03:24 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I have been suggesting 1 change he can make in multiple posts. I hardly think lowering his shots to say 18 pg where he completely cuts out the long 3 with 18 secs on the clock (if that is because he’s tired, throw it to SD or JB), along with a few other poor decision shots he takes.
Yeah, I don't disagree. I just think when the other team's game plan is to force Luka to shoot, which it clearly has been more and more frequently lately, the answer might be that he simply needs to make them pay by
finding and
making good shots.
(03-02-2022, 03:51 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah, I don't disagree. I just think when the other team's game plan is to force Luka to shoot, which it clearly has been more and more frequently lately, the answer might be that he simply needs to make them pay by finding and making good shots.
So does doing that increase his attempts or decrease them ( that is the discussion we’re having)? If it’s the latter, it’s bad for the team as a whole snd in all honesty makes him more Harden, not less. If it’s the former, great! This is another stepping stone to Luka’s growth as a superstar, he will need his team engaged more, not less (especially if we start getting better talent in here).
(03-02-2022, 04:05 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So does doing that increase his attempts or decrease them ( that is the discussion we’re having)? If it’s the latter, it’s bad for the team as a whole snd in all honesty makes him more Harden, not less. If it’s the former, great! This is another stepping stone to Luka’s growth as a superstar, he will need his team engaged more, not less (especially if we start getting better talent in here).
The discussion we're having is (should be) more nuanced than that.
Luka is the engine that makes this offense go. When the other team
refuses to let him set teammates up with the pass, the options are move the ball to someone else and play off ball (they seem to be working towards having that be a viable option, but it's going to take time) or
make them pay by scoring. That's it. Those are the options. The Mavs' current best chance to win in that situation is for Luka to make shots. He needs to do so more efficiently than he has recently, for sure. But, lowering his shot total to achieve that efficiency (if he's being defended the way teams are trying lately) is basically taking himself out of the drivers' seat, which is probably the point of the strategy from the other team's POV.
I do not agree that someone at Luka's level with the burden he carries should have a predetermined number of shots in mind for each game, no. I believe it's about what the defense gives him and whether or not he has the tools to defeat any given strategy. We're seeing another growing pain right now as teams attempt to slow him down. He'll figure this one out, too. The good news is that
the team is winning, so it's hard to complain too much.
(03-02-2022, 04:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]The discussion we're having is (should be) more nuanced than that.
Luka is the engine that makes this offense go. When the other team refuses to let him set teammates up with the pass, the options are move the ball to someone else and play off ball (they seem to be working towards having that be a viable option, but it's going to take time) or make them pay by scoring. That's it. Those are the options. The Mavs' current best chance to win in that situation is for Luka to make shots. He needs to do so more efficiently than he has recently, for sure. But, lowering his shot total to achieve that efficiency (if he's being defended the way teams are trying lately) is basically taking himself out of the drivers' seat, which is probably the point of the strategy from the other team's POV.
I do not agree that someone at Luka's level with the burden he carries should have a predetermined number of shots in mind for each game, no. I believe it's about what the defense gives him and whether or not he has the tools to defeat any given strategy. We're seeing another growing pain right now as teams attempt to slow him down. He'll figure this one out, too. The good news is that the team is winning, so it's hard to complain too much.
It’s only more nuanced because you want to make it that way. This started out with me saying Luka should assist more and shoot less. To which the disagreement was he needs to shoot more.
You say you don’t disagree while trying to make an argument to disagree.
(03-02-2022, 04:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]It’s only more nuanced because you want to make it that way. This started out with me saying Luka should assist more and shoot less. To which the disagreement was he needs to shoot more.
You say you don’t disagree while trying to make sn argument that disagrees.
I don't disagree - Luka passing more and shooting less would be better for the Mavericks.
...which is why defenses are attempting to force him in the other direction. They
want him to shoot the specific shots they're allowing him, which they deem to be more difficult for him, rather than pass to others for more comfortable attempts.
He wants to pass more and shoot less, so much so that he's throwing it right to defenders to avoid putting up shots after his initial moves. It's what he's used to, and he hasn't learned how to solve this new "they're daring me to score" problem. YET.
It's also true that at times he has hunted shots and put up some ill-advised attempts, but in my opinion, not so much lately. I believe I see maturation in that regard, personally.
I don't disagree with what you're hoping to see, just that it's a matter of Luka's choice at the moment.
(03-02-2022, 04:42 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I don't disagree - Luka passing more and shooting less would be better for the Mavericks.
...which is why defenses are attempting to force him in the other direction. They want him to shoot the specific shots they're allowing him, which they deem to be more difficult for him, rather than pass to others for more comfortable attempts.
He wants to pass more and shoot less, so much so that he's throwing it right to defenders to avoid putting up shots after his initial moves. It's what he's used to, and he hasn't learned how to solve this new "they're daring me to score" problem. YET.
It's also true that at times he has hunted shots and put up some ill-advised attempts, but in my opinion, not so much lately. I believe I see maturation in that regard, personally.
I don't disagree with what you're hoping to see, just that it's a matter of Luka's choice at the moment.
I don’t know that I agree that he wants to pass more and score less (honestly I don’t think it’s a fully conscious decision either way), I’m talking about a mindset
closer to Kidd’s when he played (but not going full Kidd) as opposed to Harden (he hasn’t gone full Harden, but he’s closer to him than he is Kidd). On a scale of Kidd to Harden he’s roughly 75% Harden. I’m wanting and hoping he brings it closer to 50/50. That’s where I think he reaches his full potential and can eventually get in the conversation of top 5 all time.
(03-02-2022, 05:04 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I don’t know that I agree that he wants to pass more and score less (honestly I don’t think it’s a fully conscious decision either way), I’m talking about a mindset closer to Kidd’s when he played (but not going full Kidd) as opposed to Harden (he hasn’t gone full Harden, but he’s closer to him than he is Kidd). On a scale of Kidd to Harden he’s roughly 75% Harden. I’m wanting and hoping he brings it closer to 50/50. That’s where I think he reaches his full potential and can eventually get in the conversation of top 5 all time.
Yep, I'm with you on what you're hoping to see, to an extent. But...
Kidd didn't have the power to carry a team. Hopefully, Luka is way, way better than Kidd when the dust clears. Kidd was not good enough to be the best player on a championship team (great as he was) specifically because he
couldn't score when teams took away the passing game and forced him to be a scorer (which is what the league is attempting to do to Luka now).
Incidentally, this is pretty much how Dallas won in 2011, by treating Lebron exactly like teams are treating Luka right now.
No doubt in my mind that Luka will figure this out in time.
(03-02-2022, 05:12 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, I'm with you on what you're hoping to see, to an extent. But...
Kidd didn't have the power to carry a team. Hopefully, Luka is way, way better than Kidd when the dust clears. Kidd was not good enough to be the best player on a championship team (great as he was) specifically because he couldn't score when teams took away the passing game and forced him to be a scorer (which is what the league is attempting to do to Luka now).
Incidentally, this is pretty much how Dallas won in 2011, by treating Lebron exactly like teams are treating Luka right now.
No doubt in my mind that Luka will figure this out in time.
Yep, neither is Harden, but combine the two into a perfect mesh? Luka (or where I would like him to be).
(03-02-2022, 05:32 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, neither is Harden, but combine the two into a perfect mesh? Luka (or where I would like him to be).
Cool, so he needs to hurry up and learn to
score more efficiently (like Harden), so those passing lanes open back up and his pass-first nature stops being a negative (turnovers, gross).
It's already obvious that he prefers not to play selfishly like Harden, so I don't really consider that to be a threat to his future.
(03-02-2022, 07:11 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Cool, so he needs to hurry up and learn to score more efficiently (like Harden), so those passing lanes open back up and his pass-first nature stops being a negative (turnovers, gross).
It's already obvious that he prefers not to play selfishly like Harden, so I don't really consider that to be a threat to his future.
Yep, and while he’s doing that, look to shoot less (don’t need 21 pg to learn) and find different avenues to pass first.
(03-02-2022, 08:54 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Yep, and while he’s doing that, look to shoot less (don’t need 21 pg to learn) and find different avenues to pass first.
Sure, but again, it's not really up to him the way he's being defended.
Do you honestly see a player looking to hog the ball, lately? I see a player really frustrated that the other team is forcing him to shoot.
(03-02-2022, 08:55 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Sure, but again, it's not really up to him the way he's being defended.
Do you honestly see a player looking to hog the ball, lately? I see a player really frustrated that the other team is forcing him to shoot.
I still see a team focused on giving him the ball. SD has many times rechecked the ball for him since being here as we've seen JB do. I also don't see a frustrated player in Luka at all, unless we're talking about with the refs. Don't know if that's Kidd calling his number, him calling his number or the team being used to deferring to him, but that needs to change more than it has IMO (I think it's happened less, but I don't know the stats for something like that...I guess usage would be a start).
(03-02-2022, 09:22 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I still see a team focused on giving him the ball. SD has many times rechecked the ball for him since being here as we've seen JB do. I also don't see a frustrated player in Luka at all, unless we're talking about with the refs. Don't know if that's Kidd calling his number, him calling his number or the team being used to deferring to him, but that needs to change more than it has IMO (I think it's happened less, but I don't know the stats for something like that...I guess usage would be a start).
Gotcha. I think he has been
very frustrated by the turnovers, recently, mostly because he can't seem to lock in on just what teams are doing to confuse him.
(03-02-2022, 09:26 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]Gotcha. I think he has been very frustrated by the turnovers, recently, mostly because he can't seem to lock in on just what teams are doing to confuse him.
Ya, that's for Kidd to "give him the answers to the test" also. I really liked that play with SD and DFS and once it happened, it made me think of why we haven't seen that stuff from Luka more. The answer I came up with is he's always (hyperbole, but I don't know the exact word I need to use here) trying to set up the 3 point shooter when he drives.
(03-03-2022, 04:00 PM)MFFL Wrote: [ -> ]I didn't see how the media could choose anyone else based on stats and wins & losses. But I was prepared for Ja Morant to win
Given how much the media loves Ja, as soon as he made it close I was expecting him to win it. Especially since his team went 8-2 (Even though with him they were 7-2).
Luka had the objectively better month though.
(03-03-2022, 04:02 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Given how much the media loves Ja, as soon as he made it close I was expecting him to win it. Especially since his team went 8-2 (Even though with him they were 7-2).
Luka had the objectively better month though.
Ball don’t lie. Luka had the better month and got the award he deserved. Can’t wait for him to put up these numbers for a full season.