(07-16-2021, 05:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]That's been my main drum beat through everything: "Time will tell."
With respect, I think the reason nobody responds to this, no matter how often you type it, is that you clearly have the most made up mind out of anyone here. If this was all an issue to be decided in the courts, you'd be the person I'd feel least comfortable with presiding over the proceedings as a judge. You'd be a GREAT choice to argue in favor of your side as a lawyer, but it's odd to imagine that person stopping the argument every other sentence to say "but remember, I'm impartial, and time will tell."
You aren't, and for
you, it has. Just own it.
(07-16-2021, 08:09 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]With respect, I think the reason nobody responds to this, no matter how often you type it, is that you clearly have the most made up mind out of anyone here. If this was all an issue to be decided in the courts, you'd be the person I'd feel least comfortable with presiding over the proceedings as a judge. You'd be a GREAT choice to argue in favor of your side as a lawyer, but it's odd to imagine that person stopping the argument every other sentence to say "but remember, I'm impartial, and time will tell."
You aren't, and for you, it has. Just own it.
1) I have a very strong opinion on what I think has gone on. So YES, my mind is made up with the current info I have.
2) I am ready to change that opinion if I see new evidence that compels me to reevaluate my position.
You can chide me all you want, but this is in fact my stance. I change my opinion and view on things all the time when I find new information compelling, both in the sports world (Mavs, etc) and in my actual life.
So I am going to continue to do two things: 1) put forward my current opinion and 2) remind myself and others that we are working with only so much data and information and we will soon have a lot more to process and integrate into our narratives.
(07-16-2021, 08:21 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]You can chide me all you want, but this is in fact my stance. I change my opinion and view on things all the time when I find new information compelling, both in the sports world (Mavs, etc) and in my actual life.
I would never "chide" anyone for an opinion - at least not intentionally, in a non-playful manner - and I didn't intend the post you quoted to come across that way at all. Sorry if it did.
I'm just saying that I've known you for a looooong time, and while I think you can be incredibly insightful about many things, I don't know that I've ever once noticed you change your opinion about anything big like this. Like, ever.
I'm not even saying there's anything (remotely) wrong with that. It just makes the condescending "time will tell" stuff (as if we're all children who need life lessons handed down from someone more enlightened than we) a little bit hard to stomach. That seems like something someone who
actually hasn't made their mind up should say to someone who has, not the other way around.
IMO, as a great admirer of yours either way, you are either unaware how resolved your opinions already are and therefor a little oblivious to the irony here, or you are
very aware of what you're doing and engaging in something that reminds me of Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. I
really don't want to get into this Carlisle stuff anymore, but you type the same stuff over and over, knowing full well that it will
become "fact" if enough people read it enough times. There's a way to look at it that really could be considered quite sinister.
He's gone. Jason Kidd is the coach now. Can't we just argue about him?
(07-16-2021, 08:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I'm just saying that I've known you for a looooong time, and while I think you can be incredibly insightful about many things, I don't know that I've ever once noticed you change your opinion about anything big like this. Like, ever.
Shoot I have changed my opinion on basically EVERY significant Mavs person, sometimes multiple times. Dirk, Cuban, RC, Donnie, Marion, Tyson, JET, Kidd, Nash, Fin, Avery, on and on.
I am actually struggling to think of anyone I HAVEN'T changed my opinion on.....maybe Roddy?
What usually changes my mind is a new event or new numbers that help me reexamine what I have been seeing with my eyes. What has probably rarely happened is having my mind changed by the arguments of someone on the internet.
(07-16-2021, 08:30 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]you are either unaware how resolved your opinions already are and therefor a little oblivious to the irony here, or you are very aware of what you're doing and engaging in something that reminds me of Littlefinger from Game of Thrones.
Speaking of condescending.
(07-16-2021, 08:42 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Speaking of condescending.
Whoa - didn't mean that as condescending at all! Just descriptive.
Littlefinger is one of my favorite characters!
(07-16-2021, 08:42 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Shoot I have changed my opinion on basically EVERY significant Mavs person, sometimes multiple times. Dirk, Cuban, RC, Donnie, Marion, Tyson, JET, Kidd, Nash, Fin, Avery, on and on.
Yeah? What's your current take on not bringing Chandler or Barea back after 2011? I think it's safe to say we have enough info to judge that one by now, right?
(07-16-2021, 08:58 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]Did somebody already post this?
Nope, thanks for bringing it here.
(07-16-2021, 08:44 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]What's your current take on not bringing Chandler or Barea back after 2011? I think it's safe to say we have enough info to judge that one by now, right?
I was wrong on how important Tyson was to the team. I still GET the decision to not pay him and I still think the 2012 team with Odom was DAMN talented, but I underestimated his role in cohesion and chemistry.
I was also wrong on JJB. He was a HORRIBLE defender when RC first started playing him, but he proved me wrong and became one of the better Mavs in his second stint. Not sure I would have paid him THEN, but when he came back the dude was a legit good NBA PG.
(07-16-2021, 09:05 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]I was wrong on how important Tyson was to the team. I still GET the decision to not pay him and I still think the 2012 team with Odom was DAMN talented, but I underestimated his role in cohesion and chemistry.
I was also wrong on JJB. He was a HORRIBLE defender when RC first started playing him, but he proved me wrong and became one of the better Mavs in his second stint. Not sure I would have paid him THEN, but when he came back the dude was a legit good NBA PG.
Not just at the time but even now in retrospect I’m still OK with not paying Chandler or JJ. What I hated was the superstar or bust mentality every year after the championship for the rest of Dirks career. It caused us to miss a lot of opportunities to add good players that could’ve helped Dirk make one more run.
The 2012 team was just snake bit. If I remember correctly the lockout shortened season was really tough on the older teams around the league. Then you add in the fact that Odom really screwed us over and we were pretty much dead in the water.
(07-16-2021, 09:09 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]The 2012 team was just snake bit.
In retrospect I think that was when RC really started to "lose" the locker rooms for the Mavs. What RC did in 2009, 2010, 2011 was an incredible coaching job IMO. But that 2012 season really started a somewhat downward spiral for him. Was Odom at the root of some of that? Not sure. Was RC frustarted with Cuban's choices for roster? Not sure. I can only speculate. But looking back, I just don't think RC "had" the locker room in DAL really at any point post 2011. I think 2014 and 2016 he got a lot out of those teams, but it just wasn't like what he did in those first three years.
(07-16-2021, 09:09 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]Not just at the time but even now in retrospect I’m still OK with not paying Chandler or JJ. What I hated was the superstar or bust mentality every year after the championship for the rest of Dirks career. It caused us to miss a lot of opportunities to add good players that could’ve helped Dirk make one more run.
The 2012 team was just snake bit. If I remember correctly the lockout short in season was really tough on the older teams around the league. Then you add in the fact that Odom really screwed us over and we were pretty much dead in the water.
I'd argue that part of the reason we've had so much trouble in free agency is because we didn't pay Tyson.
(07-16-2021, 09:16 PM)cow Wrote: [ -> ]I'd argue that part of the reason we've had so much trouble in free agency is because we didn't pay Tyson.
Interesting.
Can you walk me through the logic?
(07-16-2021, 09:09 PM)BasketballJones41 Wrote: [ -> ]Not just at the time but even now in retrospect I’m still OK with not paying Chandler or JJ. What I hated was the superstar or bust mentality every year after the championship for the rest of Dirks career. It caused us to miss a lot of opportunities to add good players that could’ve helped Dirk make one more run.
I see those things as inseparable, linked events.
I've been more ok with it recently, now that we're at the beginning of something, but back then, at the end of something, I just wanted that 2011 team (maybe with some minor tweaks) to have the chance to defend their title. I felt (and still feel) morally entitled to that, even though that's ridiculous. Tyson Chandler was SOOOOO freaking special for the Mavs back then. He and Barea were the two
youngest contributors. It really took some of my Mavs soul, and I'm still trying to build it back up.
It's all in the past though. Hopefully, the future will be better.
(07-16-2021, 09:13 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]In retrospect I think that was when RC really started to "lose" the locker rooms for the Mavs. What RC did in 2009, 2010, 2011 was an incredible coaching job IMO. But that 2012 season really started a somewhat downward spiral for him. Was Odom at the root of some of that? Not sure. Was RC frustarted with Cuban's choices for roster? Not sure. I can only speculate. But looking back, I just don't think RC "had" the locker room in DAL really at any point post 2011. I think 2014 and 2016 he got a lot out of those teams, but it just wasn't like what he did in those first three years.
Rick definitely earned some of the blame for failures in the post championship years. But mostly he got shielded by Rick and Donnie‘s mistakes. I was never in the fire Carlisle camp or the Rick has no faults camp. I was even a little bummed to see him go this year. But he has his flaws and it sounds like it was time.
(07-16-2021, 09:17 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Interesting.
Can you walk me through the logic?
Players talk. We've heard grumblings from players throughout the years about racial undertones of who the Mavericks organization was willing to take care of and who they weren't. I think some of that is a bit misguided, but when your loyalty is tied to only Dirk (now Luka), that can easily be misconstrued. Tyson was the second most important Mav on that championship team in my eyes and rather than reward him, MBT thought they were smarter than everyone else and could "upgrade" him through big game hunting. Hindsight and all, but we'd have been better team for those post championship teams had we just paid the man. Dallas is never going to be a huge free agent destination.
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