(06-16-2021, 02:25 AM)Aussiebballer Wrote: [ -> ]What if the Mavs say stuff it and bring in Dantoni as head coach to run the offence.
Seems like he would be able to utilise Luka to the fullest, just need good defensive minded assistants.
At least it would be entertaining 
D'Antoni has had enough chances. Give some of these assistants that have been grinding in the league a long time. A guy like Sam Cassell or Ime Udoka a chance. Tired of seeing these "Wash, Rinse, Repeat" coaches.
SBJ not at all confident the new GM will be so quick to resign THJ.
(06-16-2021, 05:56 PM)StepBackJay Wrote: [ -> ]SBJ not at all confident the new GM will be so quick to resign THJ.
If I was the new GM, I'd make it simple. Offer THJ 4 years/$60 million. He knows his role on this team and he'll still have it if he re-signs. Let him know he can check with other teams and if one of them actually beats this offer, come back and we can talk about matching or beating it. Otherwise, this offer will still be waiting.
(06-17-2021, 03:48 AM)Branduil Wrote: [ -> ]If I was the new GM, I'd make it simple. Offer THJ 4 years/$60 million. He knows his role on this team and he'll still have it if he re-signs. Let him know he can check with other teams and if one of them actually beats this offer, come back and we can talk about matching or beating it. Otherwise, this offer will still be waiting.
I myself would give him an option. 4/48 or 2/30. I think he would work better on short term contracts.
(06-17-2021, 07:21 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I myself would give him an option. 4/48 or 2/30. I think he would work better on short term contracts.
What is your plan B if he rejects? Offer more? Go another route (which one)? THJ is the last pure shooter we have and our concept of offense just won't work, as we have seen in the playoffs.
60/4 for THJ would be a great deal in my book. I do think they should make it a declining salary so he becomes more tradeable every season and to give themselves a better shot at cap space in 23 or 24.
17m
15.7m
14.3m
13m
(06-17-2021, 07:31 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]What is your plan B if he rejects? Offer more? Go another route (which one)? THJ is the last pure shooter we have and our concept of offense just won't work, as we have seen in the playoffs.
Plan B? Our team is filled with Plan F-Z players. If plan B was executed, that alone would be a win!
(06-17-2021, 08:03 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Plan B? Our team is filled with Plan F-Z players. If plan B was executed, that alone would be a win!
Come on, do we really have to go into semantics... THJ walks, what do you do instead? What is your plan A then, if you prefer to call it that way? Limiting discussion to cap space and minor SnT options, just way too many variables if you include trading KP.
(06-17-2021, 08:16 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Come on, do we really have to go into semantics... THJ walks, what do you do instead? What is your plan A then, if you prefer to call it that way? Limiting discussion to cap space and minor SnT options, just way too many variables if you include trading KP.
So many pages with even your input about that, why do I have to rehash that to you? Bottom line for me is I don’t think THJ is worth more than that, so I don’t think he should be paid more.
(06-17-2021, 08:20 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So many pages with even your input about that, why do I have to rehash that to you?
You don't have to do anything but I thought this is a discussion board, so I asked. I never look at single pieces, always at the puzzle. I actually think this line of thinking - this player is not wroth X mil, that player shouldn't take 2 FRP to get got us where we are. Always short of actually signing someone. Seems to me your strategy could lead to losing THJ and signing vet min Valentine as his replacement. Would that make Mavs better?
(06-17-2021, 08:27 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]You don't have to do anything but I thought this is a discussion board, so I asked. I never look at single pieces, always at the puzzle. I actually think this line of thinking - this player is not wroth X mil, that player shouldn't take 2 FRP to get got us where we are. Always short of actually signing someone. Seems to me your strategy could lead to losing THJ and signing vet min Valentine as his replacement. Would that make Mavs better?
Sometimes you have to trade KP to take that step forward. I don’t see THJ as some big difference maker for this or any other team. Sure he has an argument as the second best player on this team this year, but that doesn’t say much to me when we have MJ on the team and we’re not contenders.
This is the Chicago Bulls at MJ’s very beginning. Glad everyone gets along and can play grab ass in the lockerroom, I want the quality of player raised. If we lose that grab ass game in the lockerroom? It would be worth it to all involved if we were in the playoffs still today, especially seeing all the players taken out recently.
Right now, the Hawks are visualizing a path to the finals. The first year playoff Hawks!
The reason it would be hard to answer your question is there are so many directions to go (many of which we have both been a part of) that just narrowing it down to 1of those directions feels like you’re setting a trap to tear down what I say is the direction I would go. So I don’t take the bait on that.
I’ll tell you one of the directions I posted in the last week that I think makes this team better is using what I’d like to be the $34M of space and sign Reggie Jackson, Nick Batum and PJ Tucker. I myself think that brings back a better group of basketball players than we had this year.
(06-17-2021, 08:39 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Right now, the Hawks are visualizing a path to the finals. The first year playoff Hawks!
Great story for them. What they did was draft their core and overpay Bogdanovic and especially Gallo. Somehow turn huge Rondo overpay (another season on books) into Williams (expiring) and second round picks. That was just brilliant move or total Clippers panic move, really beyond understanding to me.
This is what bothers me. When we had the chance to overpay (2019), everyone was too expensive. Talking about common opinion on this board, not directed specifically at you, I don't remember your stance. When we had expiring contracts to trade, majority wouldn't use assets it took to get RoCo or similar. So here we are now, with last cap space chance probably heading into offseason where we will absolutely have to overpay a lot, because everyone knows we don't really have any other option. That is why I would be very careful penny pinching with THJ. Similar guys like Fournier or Powell will probably command contracts closer to 20 per than 15 per. Is Mavs team building really that much compromised if THJ costs 17 instead of 14 per? Would those 3 millions really prevent our "grand plan" from happening? Aren't there better ways to create those 3 millions of cap space, if they are that critical?
I agree THJ is not second best player on a contender and there is a limit to his price. But I think his price will be higher than 13 mil you suggest. If this is your limit, than you are basically building a team without THJ. Which is ok, I am just interested how that will look. I am not against KP trade, but lets assume he is untradeable for the purpose of this discussion. I am sure that is one of the possible scenarios.
(06-17-2021, 08:48 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I’ll tell you one of the directions I posted in the last week that I think makes this team better is using what I’d like to be the $34M of space and sign Reggie Jackson, Nick Batum and PJ Tucker. I myself think that brings back a better group of basketball players than we had this year.
Thanks for the opinion. I would actually hope you can get at least one of those guys with rMLE. I can't imagine Tucker or Batum would command full MLE. But I agree, both are great role players, especially for playoffs.
Jackson is an interesting case. After being an inefficient chucker for most of his career which tanked his salary to vet min, he had two decent seasons in a limited role with Clippers and an awesome playoff run so far. I wonder how much of that is being part of the system, as Clippers have four good to excellent defenders around him to hide his weaknesses. Would that still work with Mavs?
My personal offseason wish (assuming we keep KP) is one of top FA (Lowry, Conley, Collins, Ball, Graham, CP3) and resign THJ. I think losing his shooting ability would hurt us a lot.
(06-17-2021, 09:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]My personal offseason wish (assuming we keep KP) is one of top FA (Lowry, Conley, Collins, Ball, Graham, CP3) and resign THJ. I think losing his shooting ability would hurt us a lot.
But, if given the choice (without going into the potential outcomes of such a choice), would you want to move KP this summer? I know it's relative, based on the return, and I know we've discussed this a ton around here, but I can't remember where you landed.
(06-17-2021, 08:54 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Great story for them. What they did was draft their core and overpay Bogdanovic and especially Gallo. Somehow turn huge Rondo overpay (another season on books) into Williams (expiring) and second round picks. That was just brilliant move or total Clippers panic move, really beyond understanding to me.
This is what bothers me. When we had the chance to overpay (2019), everyone was too expensive. Talking about common opinion on this board, not directed specifically at you, I don't remember your stance. When we had expiring contracts to trade, majority wouldn't use assets it took to get RoCo or similar. So here we are now, with last cap space chance probably heading into offseason where we will absolutely have to overpay a lot, because everyone knows we don't really have any other option. That is why I would be very careful penny pinching with THJ. Similar guys like Fournier or Powell will probably command contracts closer to 20 per than 15 per. Is Mavs team building really that much compromised if THJ costs 17 instead of 14 per? Would those 3 millions really prevent our "grand plan" from happening? Aren't there better ways to create those 3 millions of cap space, if they are that critical?
I agree THJ is not second best player on a contender and there is a limit to his price. But I think his price will be higher than 13 mil you suggest. If this is your limit, than you are basically building a team without THJ. Which is ok, I am just interested how that will look. I am not against KP trade, but lets assume he is untradeable for the purpose of this discussion. I am sure that is one of the possible scenarios.
That is also what I am saying, there are so many routes to go, as a fan that doesn’t get to see the internal discussion, all we have is the discussion about this that has already taken place, rehashing all that out seems redundant to me when I know you have read those posts just like me. That’s why I believed you were trying to set a trap.
I can envision a world where THJ is paid more than I believe he is worth and we come away from the offseason a better team. That world IMO still has THJ coming off the bench being overpaid, because I really don’t believe he brings his best worth as a starter (next to Luka or not, just in general). He got this current contract playing off the bench in Atl, I think he showed his biggest worth when he came off the bench this year too.
(06-17-2021, 09:10 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I can envision a world where THJ is paid more than I believe he is worth and we come away from the offseason a better team. That world IMO still has THJ coming off the bench being overpaid, because I really don’t believe he brings his best worth as a starter (next to Luka or not, just in general). He got this current contract playing off the bench in Atl, I think he showed his biggest worth when he came off the bench this year too.
I don't understand this fascination you have with "starting"...
Do you remember Jason Terry as a starter? He was, of course. He came off the bench, but was the 2nd most important offensive player on every Mavs team he was a part of. He played super high minutes, always more than whoever "started" in his place. It was just a way of maximizing rotation patterns. I can easily see THJ coming off the bench like THAT, but he's not going to be a 20 minutes per night type of guy. I think ANY team would value him more highly than that.
(06-17-2021, 09:07 AM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But, if given the choice (without going into the potential outcomes of such a choice), would you want to move KP this summer? I know it's relative, based on the return, and I know we've discussed this a ton around here, but I can't remember where you landed.
I would trade him for right return, either cap space or players. What is right return depends a lot on what you can actually get in free agency as I doubt we will get 30 mil worth of good players.
Example, we dump him for mostly cap space. It is nice to create plans with Holmes. But what if Charlotte throws 22 mil or similar at him? What do you do? Offer him 23 or go for FA alternative? Who is next best FA center this offseason? I don't really see many options. Even if we get Holmes - is this really a right way? Basically all non shooting players are a problem deep in playoffs. Even MVP two way stars like Giannis. We don't see a bunch of easy PnR dunks even with elite PnR player like Gobert playing against small ball lineups. KP just spreading the floor might prove more useful, if he could play defense. Turner might be better option than Holmes but is there a way to get him?
So in conclusion, I think trading KP that would lead to a better team will be very difficult this offseason.
(06-17-2021, 09:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]Thanks for the opinion. I would actually hope you can get at least one of those guys with rMLE. I can't imagine Tucker or Batum would command full MLE. But I agree, both are great role players, especially for playoffs.
Jackson is an interesting case. After being an inefficient chucker for most of his career which tanked his salary to vet min, he had two decent seasons in a limited role with Clippers and an awesome playoff run so far. I wonder how much of that is being part of the system, as Clippers have four good to excellent defenders around him to hide his weaknesses. Would that still work with Mavs?
My personal offseason wish (assuming we keep KP) is one of top FA (Lowry, Conley, Collins, Ball, Graham, CP3) and resign THJ. I think losing his shooting ability would hurt us a lot.
Everything is on the table now so I don't know what a new GM will be able to do. I think a non-Ujiri GM is still going to struggle to attract FA's so I still think Lowry, Conley, Ball, CP3 are probably not happening). Graham is an interesting target, we know the Mavs FO up to this point has been very high on Collins.
I expect some big moves but I am not sure that spending a bunch of money on THJ is a good one. Reggie Jackson is a good comp bc he is currently doing better what THJ is going to do. Does that mean Reggie is going to now get big-time shooter money or will he still be undervalued? It's hard to predict.
My general feeling is if you can't get your big time difference maker, then its better to make smaller moves (FA, trade) that add depth, well-fitting players that are easily movable. So THJ I am fine with if his value dropped down back to where it should be which is 15 mil or less a year. If its inflated to 20 mil then there is no margin for error if his shooting drops back down to earth. When he isn't shooting well he doesn't do a whole lot else.
Basically I am saying you sort of hollow out the middle. Go big on the guys you think are real difference makers but otherwise you should be trying to piece together value contracts for role guys.
(06-17-2021, 09:03 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]My personal offseason wish (assuming we keep KP) is one of top FA (Lowry, Conley, Collins, Ball, Graham, CP3) and resign THJ. I think losing his shooting ability would hurt us a lot.
I like the youth acquisitions of Ball or Collins better than the others, but like I said, those things have been talked about thoroughly. I think any one of the guys you listed are better basketball players than THJ (maybe with Graham as the exception, but I know little about him). If we can get 2 of them with THJ’s money and another player on our roster as a SnT (sans KP, well, there are some of the names there that I would use KP for)?
That makes us a better team on paper because we have better basketball players on it. Better basketball players increase the overall trade value too in case the on paper wins don’t equate to on court wins.