(06-04-2021, 01:02 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]2. There are so many degrees of "dribbling" between NBA PG and where DFS and Maxi are, and both THJ and KP are closer to them than they are to the NBA PG.
Nice straw man that's not relevant. No one said either player is an NBA PG, no one said either player needs to be, and suddenly you think you inserting that they aren't close to an NBA PG settles something? It's not really meaningful when no one claims they are an NBA PG or need to be.
(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Utah is the #1 seed and they basically returned their entire roster from a team that got bounced in the 1st round of the playoffs last year.
Well, you left out that Bogi, arguably their third best player, was not with them in the bubble and Conley didn't just mesh yet with the team.
(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]On converse, quit falling in love with other players and over valuing them and thinking they're automatic upgrades just because they play for another team.
You are way simplifying things. Yes, some posters proposed Drummond, some Hield and so on. Some agree with them some don't. But that is not really important. What is important is how you will build a contender. Unless you think this team is a contender level, changes are needed. You like to bring O'Neale as an example, but he is basically your DFS. Mitchell is not as good as Luka, but Gobert, Bogi and Conley are way way way better than KP, THJ and Kleber.
The key is to build around Luka and as good as THJ has been, I have a hard time seeing him in Luka lead starting five. There would be just too many defensive holes. So if I spend most of "my" available budget for someone I don't see as a starter, I will have a hard time building a contending team.
One way is to bring everyone back and hope for a trade. But it is possible this way will lead to another season of Luka dragging the team to playoffs and first round exit with some minor trade deadline trade as it was Johnson for Redick. There is absolutely no guarantee a good trade will happen. Sure we can hope JRich and KP will benefit from a healthy offseason and team will improve. Mavs know best and I can't do much but trust their judgement on that one.
The other possibility is to use cap space for proven players and I think we can agree there are better options around than Drummond or Oubre. And I totally agree that Fournier is not an improvement over THJ. But there are some other players, that are arguably better than THJ or have potential.
KP returning to his former self or trading him for good players if he has market value is the best possibility to retool this team.
(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Look at all the fawning over Josh Richardson last offseason.
There is absolutely no way Curry could be used on Mavs as he is used in Philly surrounded with four excellent defenders. He could only be on bench for Mavs, but we already have Brunson and THJ there, so he would be sort of redundant. Sure JRich didn't work out as we all hoped but this doesn't mean Mavs were wrong for trying. And, we all have to be a bit more patient in this extremely difficult and weird season.
(06-04-2021, 01:16 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Nice straw man that's not relevant. No one said either player is an NBA PG, no one said either player needs to be, and suddenly you think you inserting that they aren't close to an NBA PG settles something? It's not really meaningful when no one claims they are an NBA PG or need to be.
Huh? You said neither is an NBA PG as if there was NBA PG quality and then the quality that DFS and Maxi possess. If you meant something different, it wasn’t conveyed in your argument.
(06-04-2021, 01:57 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Huh? You said neither is an NBA PG as if there was NBA PG quality and then the quality that DFS and Maxi possess.
It was being argued that Maxi and DFS are over-valued by those who discuss trade ideas, with the point being made that (supposedly) neither can even dribble ("both
can't dribble the ball") in an attempt to minimize their value, I guess.
In reply to that, my point was that while neither is an NBA PG (ie, they can't dribble at THAT level), they both CAN dribble the ball when it's called for in their role. The idea that neither
can dribble is way off, and any assertion that
neither can dribble like an NBA PG would be irrelevant since playing PG is not their NBA job.
Since this issue was brought up, DFS for me is absolutely untouchable for anything less than an established All-Star who isn't 80 years old. I would trade him for the right deal, but his value to the team (and, with his contract, within the league) is far too high to trade him for someone who *might* help us.
Players for whom I would include DFS in a trade:
*Tatum
Jaylen Brown
*KD (don't want Bearded Clam nor Mr. Flatearther on the team at any price)
Randle
*Embiid
maybe Siakam
maybe Grant
Brogdon
Jrue
*Giannis
*LaMelo
Butler
*Bam
Beal
*Joker
maybe Murray
maybe Porter
maybe Aaron Gordon
Anthony Edwards (not KAT; a center needs to be able to play defense, period)
SGA
*Dame (NOT RoCo)
*Spida
*Gobert
*Steph
Kawhi
Brow (yes, injury issues and all)
*Booker
*Ayton
Mikal (due to the similar skillset)
Fox
Wood
*Ja
Maybe JJJ
*Zion
Ingram (the weakest non-maybe name)
Yeah, that's 35 names, but don't @ me for the maybes - I'm saying I could go either way. And all of the guys with asterisks, the other team is hanging up unless you're offering Luka (hint: you aren't). That leaves 14 guys in the league for whom I would include DFS in a trade for sure. That's it. Conley, CP3, or especially Lowry would be great adds for the Mavs, but given their contracts, nope, you can't have DFS back.
The Brunson list is quite a bit longer (especially after seeing his struggles in this series), ditto Maxi, and the KP list is huuuuuuuge.
(06-04-2021, 03:49 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Since this issue was brought up, DFS for me is absolutely untouchable for anything less than an established All-Star who isn't 80 years old. I would trade him for the right deal, but his value to the team (and, with his contract, within the league) is far too high to trade him for someone who *might* help us.
I think of DFS in a pretty serious light as well. I don't have a list of guys that I have to have in order to let go of him, but if the right guy comes available and that team wants DFS in the trade as a decent portion of the return value, I'm hoping they aren't kidding.
(06-04-2021, 04:25 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Players for whom I would include DFS in a trade:
*Tatum
Jaylen Brown
*KD (don't want Bearded Clam nor Mr. Flatearther on the team at any price)
Randle
*Embiid
maybe Siakam
maybe Grant
Brogdon
Jrue
*Giannis
*LaMelo
Butler
*Bam
Beal
*Joker
maybe Murray
maybe Porter
maybe Aaron Gordon
Anthony Edwards (not KAT; a center needs to be able to play defense, period)
SGA
*Dame (NOT RoCo)
*Spida
*Gobert
*Steph
Kawhi
Brow (yes, injury issues and all)
*Booker
*Ayton
Mikal (due to the similar skillset)
Fox
Wood
*Ja
Maybe JJJ
*Zion
Ingram (the weakest non-maybe name)
Yeah, that's 35 names, but don't @ me for the maybes - I'm saying I could go either way. And all of the guys with asterisks, the other team is hanging up unless you're offering Luka (hint: you aren't). That leaves 14 guys in the league for whom I would include DFS in a trade for sure. That's it. Conley, CP3, or especially Lowry would be great adds for the Mavs, but given their contracts, nope, you can't have DFS back.
The Brunson list is quite a bit longer (especially after seeing his struggles in this series), ditto Maxi, and the KP list is huuuuuuuge.
Here's mine (by team I think it's easier - I will exclude superstars/all-stars/unrealistic young guys):
Collins, Capela, Bogdanovic, J. Harris, Smart, Bridges, Lavine, A. Gordon, Wood, Brogdon, Turner, Brooks, McCollum, Nurkic, RoCo, VanVleet, Anunoby, D. Murray, D. Vassell. Plus all the unrealistic top 30-40 guys. Basically a top-50/60 player in the league. JB/KP/Maxi are ahead of him on the trade list, I agree.
(06-04-2021, 04:25 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Players for whom I would include DFS in a trade:
*Tatum
Jaylen Brown
*KD (don't want Bearded Clam nor Mr. Flatearther on the team at any price)
Randle
*Embiid
maybe Siakam
maybe Grant
Brogdon
Jrue
*Giannis
*LaMelo
Butler
*Bam
Beal
*Joker
maybe Murray
maybe Porter
maybe Aaron Gordon
Anthony Edwards (not KAT; a center needs to be able to play defense, period)
SGA
*Dame (NOT RoCo)
*Spida
*Gobert
*Steph
Kawhi
Brow (yes, injury issues and all)
*Booker
*Ayton
Mikal (due to the similar skillset)
Fox
Wood
*Ja
Maybe JJJ
*Zion
Ingram (the weakest non-maybe name)
Yeah, that's 35 names, but don't @ me for the maybes - I'm saying I could go either way. And all of the guys with asterisks, the other team is hanging up unless you're offering Luka (hint: you aren't). That leaves 14 guys in the league for whom I would include DFS in a trade for sure. That's it. Conley, CP3, or especially Lowry would be great adds for the Mavs, but given their contracts, nope, you can't have DFS back.
The Brunson list is quite a bit longer (especially after seeing his struggles in this series), ditto Maxi, and the KP list is huuuuuuuge.
First off, let me understand what you're saying. Are you proposing DFS straight up for the players listed, or in a package deal? Because DFS is NOT better than most of them in a 1-1 deal, and those teams will hang up the phone for Dallas even thinking that, asterisks included. DFS is a good role player, nothing more, nothing less..
(06-05-2021, 10:04 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]Because DFS is NOT better than most of them in a 1-1 deal, and those teams will hang up the phone for Dallas even thinking that, asterisks included. DFS is a good role player, nothing more, nothing less..
Actually DFS is much more valuable than "a good role player, nothing more..."
DFS certainly has really good value as a player. But he also has value - real trade value and team-building value - in the fact that he only eats up $4M of your payroll. In a cap world, that's like giving you another MLE slot, or more, to fix a different need too. The salary truly matters.
So if some team wants to trade for him, unless they are willing to provide ALL of that value in return, no deal. That would be somehow factored into any swap.
Since the Mavs need the payroll benefit and a 3-and-D wing as much as anyone, he won't be made available unless the value in return is way higher than "a good role player, nothing more..." - it probably would be a deal that lands a real star.
Don’t know where I’ve seen it posted lately, but to the people saying we can’t trade Luka’s buddies on the team cause he’ll leave as soon as he can. I have two things to say about that.
- How introverted and uncharismatic do you believe him to be that he can’t make new friends on the team as they come?
- Do you really think it matters that he has friends on the team if his team is winning?
(06-05-2021, 11:34 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Don’t know where I’ve seen it posted lately, but to the people saying we can’t trade Luka’s buddies on the team cause he’ll leave as soon as he can. I have two things to say about that.
- How introverted and uncharismatic do you believe him to be that he can’t make new friends on the team as they come?
- Do you really think it matters that he has friends on the team if his team is winning?
I actually agree with your point. But I do believe there's a balance. You NEED to have at least 1-2 guys on the roster that are Luka's guys. It'd be better if those guys could actually play basketball. Thankfully most do. Brunson/THJ/Boban/DFS are all Luka's guys and he hangs out frequently with.
(06-05-2021, 01:04 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]I actually agree with your point. But I do believe there's a balance. You NEED to have at least 1-2 guys on the roster that are Luka's guys. It'd be better if those guys could actually play basketball. Thankfully most do. Brunson/THJ/Boban/DFS are all Luka's guys and he hangs out frequently with.
Why are they the only guys in the NBA that can be that for him? Still don’t think he cares as much about hanging out with teammates as opposed to having a championship caliber team. I also don’t believe he wouldn’t be able to find guys on the team that he could hang out with if every one of those guys you listed were not here.
(06-05-2021, 01:26 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Why are they the only guys in the NBA that can be that for him?
Thats not what I'm asserting. I don't think the guys on the roster are the only guys that can be that for him.
(06-05-2021, 01:26 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]Still don’t think he cares as much about hanging out with teammates as opposed to having a championship caliber team.
I agreed with you here. Luka cares about winning first and foremost.
(06-05-2021, 01:26 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]I also don’t believe he wouldn’t be able to find guys on the team that he could hang out with if every one of those guys you listed were not here.
I again agree with you here.
However if you go scorched Earth and trade everyone and anyone not named Luka, there will undoubtedly be an adjustment period. Is there a chance that Luka will have no friends on the new team? Very low but I think he'll find new friends.
But will they be as close to him as the guys before at least initially? No. That's why you need to retain at least 1 or 2 familiar faces. I don't see why keeping Boban at the minimum would be counterintuitive to building a championship team.
Good locker rooms are like the hidden rhythm of any good song. The audience only notices it when its not there and it's integral for success.
I am okay with it if Boban is his guy. Keep him on the roster for a few more years. He is a great locker room guy and a player/fan favorite (just finished 5th in the teammate of the year voting). At least Boban is not only Luka´s favorite guy. Also useful in a limited on court role.
(06-05-2021, 10:04 AM)HoosierDaddyKid Wrote: [ -> ]First off, let me understand what you're saying. Are you proposing DFS straight up for the players listed, or in a package deal? Because DFS is NOT better than most of them in a 1-1 deal, and those teams will hang up the phone for Dallas even thinking that, asterisks included. DFS is a good role player, nothing more, nothing less..
I mean as part of the package Dallas is sending out. Mikal is the only one on my list that would possibly be available for DFS + a pick or two, since he is essentially a rich man's DFS on a similarly cheap contract.
(06-05-2021, 03:09 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I mean as part of the package Dallas is sending out. Mikal is the only one on my list that would possibly be available for DFS + a pick or two, since he is essentially a rich man's DFS on a similarly cheap contract.
Sorry, but Mikal Bridges is forever dead to me after needlessly running to double Dirk on what was set up to be a one-legged free throw jumper at the buzzer during his farewell game.
F--- THAT GUY. FOREVER.
(06-05-2021, 01:38 PM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]But will they be as close to him as the guys before at least initially? No. That's why you need to retain at least 1 or 2 familiar faces. I don't see why keeping Boban at the minimum would be counterintuitive to building a championship team.
No, they will not be as close initially (although he has LOTS of friends in the NBA outside this team already). I don't think you NEED to retain anyone (the reality is that not everyone would get traded or not resigned anyway, so it's kinda like a cow's opinion, it's moo), if he can become friends with other players, it'll happen before he gets to his next contract's free agency where he would leave (6-7 years?).
As far as naming any 1 player and saying, it doesn't hurt to keep that guy on the roster, right? I say it doesn't matter who goes if they are needed as trade fodder or their salary is needed to sign someone else that gets Luka a better team. Whoever the name is, it doesn't matter.
BTW, in regards to "initially", how long does it take to become friends? Seems like if it's gonna happen, especially when you're forced to be teammates, it'll happen pretty quickly.
![[Image: giphy.gif]](https://media.giphy.com/media/bQloCmn3sCDeDbTsl1/giphy.gif)