MavsBoard

(06-04-2021, 10:14 AM)omahen Wrote: [ -> ]All true. But we already have DFS and Kleber in O'Neale role. THJ is not even Bogdanovic as he scores less and can't create for himself. Conley is a legit quality two way player and Gobert/Mitchel are stars. This means basically two out of those three need to be upgraded.

This has been my contention all along. All these posts about keeping the 5th-9th best players for a contender when we don't have 2-4 permanently. Figure out the 2-4 (I don't think KP is it for us, but he, combined with some of our 5th-9th guys can get us at least 2 of those guys). We're thinking of this building thing so backwards. 

Keep THJ cause he can be the man as a 4th best player off the bench. 
Keep Kleber cause he fits so well and is such a likable guy. 
Keep Powell cause of his lockerroom presence and community service. 
Keep DFS cause his contract is so much cheaper than his production.
Keep Boban cause Luka has no other friends on the team than him...
Keep KP once he shows to play better cause there is no way he'll get seriously injured again.

This is not the team guys. This should be a revolving door til we find THE pieces at the top! Then fill in the rest. Quit falling in love with mediocrity. 

All this and my thought is Luka as the #1 then we need 2-3 #3's (who cover all needs skill-wise) and a couple #4's, then fill in.

(06-04-2021, 10:27 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah and how do we get that 2nd star, if we re-sign THJ? That effectively makes THJ our 2nd best player. Luka might be the best player in the world, but he is not that much better than Jokic, Booker, Curry, Lillard, LeBron, Mitchell to overcome that our 2nd best player would be like the 3rd sometimes even 4th best player on the other contenders. The cores we have to deal with for the next decade are Jokic/Murray/Porter/Gordon and Booker/Ayton/Bridges.

THJ can stay, but his contract must be super-tradeable next summer. If we pay THJ 70/4, we are f*****. If he wants more than 56/4, then he should prove it on the open market. Most team won´t make him a priority and those who like him will only have the MLE. So the Mavs can actually extract assets in a S&T.

That´s the kind of asset management other teams have used for years to build a war chest for the next disgruntled superstar.

If we turn Porzingis into Turner/Markkanen/Lamb, I´m good. then it´s time to work toward the 2nd star.

Doncic
Lavine
DFS
Markkanen
Turner

That´s a legit young title contender.

For someone who often accuses fans of being blind homers, you certainly believe the rest of the NBA is eager away their best players to the Mavs for not particularly good reason or comparable compensation.

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(06-04-2021, 10:33 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]This has been my contention all along. All these posts about keeping the 5th-9th best players for a contender when we don't have 2-4 permanently. Figure out the 2-4 (I don't think KP is it for us, but he, combined with some of our 5th-9th guys can get us at least 2 of those guys). We're thinking of this building thing so backwards. 

Keep THJ cause he can be the man as a 4th best player off the bench. 
Keep Kleber cause he fits so well and is such a likable guy. 
Keep Powell cause of his lockerroom presence and community service. 
Keep DFS cause his contract is so much cheaper than his production.
Keep Boban cause Luka has no other friends on the team than him...
Keep KP once he shows to play better cause there is no way he'll get seriously injured again.

This is not the team guys. This should be a revolving door til we find THE pieces at the top! Then fill in the rest. Quit falling in love with mediocrity. 

All this and my thought is Luka as the #1 then we need 2-3 #3's (who cover all needs skill-wise) and a couple #4's, then fill in.

I guess I don't understand how letting what is currently our 2nd best player on a team on the verge of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs walk brings in the 2nd star.  What are you replacing him with that is star caliber or better than what he is?  

 I see a lot of conjecture that people don't want to pay THJ his market value .. so okay, you're going to pinch some pennies and hope to sign a comparable player for $4-5 million less than THJ, and do what with that $4 million exactly?   Spend it in this free agent market on friggin Andre Drummond or Kelly Oubre?    How is that upgrading our star power?   Youre advocating for just another version of Plan Powder here that theoreticallyh some superstar is going to fall into our lap if we don't pay our 2nd best player through some mysterious and unspecified means.

(06-04-2021, 10:27 AM)Mavs2021 Wrote: [ -> ]Yeah and how do we get that 2nd star, if we re-sign THJ? 

And how we get that 2nd star if we don't?

THJ signing a long term deal doesn't really prevent us from putting a package together for another star.  Maxi and Powell will combine for 20 million in expiring in 2023 and we'll be able to attach 3 first rounders to that.  That's what I keep eyeing as what our kitchen sink offer would be built around as things currently stand today.

(06-04-2021, 09:55 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]   
I think people greatly underestimate how many mediocre players start for "contending teams", much less players of THJ's caliber.    Like am I supposed to believe Royce O'Neale is significantly better than THJ just because he's starting and playing 30+ minutes on the #1 seed in the West?   He's not.   He's just a role guy who fits in well with what the Jazz need from the position and their current roster construction.  Generally most contenders have 2 stars, 1 high level starter, 1 middle of the road starter and 1 coattail rider role player in their starting 5.

This is one of the smartest reality-based posts I have seen on this site.

Just finished todays episode. Put Boban on the untradeable list. Would be suprised if he isn´t back.

(06-04-2021, 10:49 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]For someone who often accuses fans of being blind homers, you certainly believe the rest of the NBA is eager away their best players to the Mavs for not particularly good reason or comparable compensation.

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I guess I don't understand how letting what is currently our 2nd best player on a team on the verge of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs walk brings in the 2nd star.  What are you replacing him with that is star caliber or better than what he is?  

 I see a lot of conjecture that people don't want to pay THJ his market value .. so okay, you're going to pinch some pennies and hope to sign a comparable player for $4-5 million less than THJ, and do what with that $4 million exactly?   Spend it in this free agent market on friggin Andre Drummond or Kelly Oubre?    How is that upgrading our star power?   Youre advocating for just another version of Plan Powder here that theoreticallyh some superstar is going to fall into our lap if we don't pay our 2nd best player through some mysterious and unspecified means.

We don´t need to compensate anyone for Markkanen this year or Lavine next year. All we need is agent collusion and capspace.

Luka is the best player on the planet. If you can´t convince one top FAs to play with him, you simply suck at your job.

Furthermore if you don´t think that Turner/Lamb for Porzingis is a fair trade, then you must think Porzingis is super-trash.

Now you basically want Luka to win titles with THJ as the 2nd best player and trash as your 3rd best player.

THJ is averaging 17/4/2 in the post-season,
Porzingis ia averaging 14/4/1 in the post-season,

while playing off an attention magnet.

All you need to step out of the Mavs bubble and you´ll find that from Zach Lowe to every random realGM messageboarder they all say the same thing: Can somebody get Luka some help.

(06-04-2021, 10:49 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]I guess I don't understand how letting what is currently our 2nd best player on a team on the verge of making it to the 2nd round of the playoffs walk brings in the 2nd star.  What are you replacing him with that is star caliber or better than what he is?  

 I see a lot of conjecture that people don't want to pay THJ his market value .. so okay, you're going to pinch some pennies and hope to sign a comparable player for $4-5 million less than THJ, and do what with that $4 million exactly?   Spend it in this free agent market on friggin Andre Drummond or Kelly Oubre?    How is that upgrading our star power?   Youre advocating for just another version of Plan Powder here that theoreticallyh some superstar is going to fall into our lap if we don't pay our 2nd best player through some mysterious and unspecified means.

That post was to say quit falling in love with players that aren't going to get you to the Finals as a whole. That's to the FO and the fans alike. 

I can't believe you think THJ would be the second best player on a team that wins the Finals. So why does it matter that he's the second or third best player on this team? Quit starting in the middle and working your way up while keeping the middle. That is handicapping our search.

Sure, there could be a path that gets us to the Finals where THJ is still on the team. 
Sure, there is a path that gets us to the Finals where Maxi is still on the team.
Sure, the same can be said about every player on the roster (technically even Luka, but no one, even me, thinks that is a good idea)

Stop being so enamored with the person who showed up in 2 out of 5 games in the playoffs as the second best scorer. Let's be honest, THJ scored the second most points (on horrible efficiency) in game 5, but he was not the second best player of that game. Even the 2 games where he scored great, he's just another pocket in Luka's utility belt for those TEAM wins.

In answer to what is the alternative? There are countless posts by many posters talking about that on this board. Most of the talk has died down lately because people have come to the realization that regardless of what we want, our FO is going to sign THJ. So now the talk has to be about what his salary SHOULD be. Those million dollar pennies can be important, and are for sure important if THJ regresses as he ages. Both in terms of salary-to-court value and in terms of trade value.

(06-04-2021, 11:07 AM)StrandedOnBeauboisHill Wrote: [ -> ]THJ signing a long term deal doesn't really prevent us from putting a package together for another star.  Maxi and Powell will combine for 20 million in expiring in 2023 and we'll be able to attach 3 first rounders to that.  That's what I keep eyeing as what our kitchen sink offer would be built around as things currently stand today.

Also, the #1 goal for me is Keep Luka Here for 15 Years.    I don't see Luka being a primadona malcontent like Kyrie, KD or Harden where he demands a trade because he woke up on the wrong side of the bed on a particular morning.    But one thing I could absolutely see Luka souring on the Mavs organization over is if the Mavs let all the guys \that he's built a close chemistry with on and off the floor walk walk they're too cheap to pay them market value in exchange for some Plan Powder 2.0 promises that never come to fruition.

(06-04-2021, 11:44 AM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]That post was to say quit falling in love with players that aren't going to get you to the Finals as a whole. That's to the FO and the fans alike. 

Utah is the #1 seed and they basically returned their entire roster from a team that got bounced in the 1st round of the playoffs last year. 

On converse, quit falling in love with other players and over valuing them and thinking they're automatic upgrades just because they play for another team.  Look at all the fawning over Josh Richardson last offseason.   Oh, he was just going to step in Day 1 and be better than all of the overrated non-Luka scrubs on our current roster.   Morey couldn't get him out of Philly fast enough, but Mav Fans thought he was this huge difference maker and instant upgrade just because he wasn't  one of the MBT guys.    Look at all the blubbering trade proposals over Buddy Hield, who  is at best no better than THJ and actually is paid $20 million a year AND you would have to trade assets to obtain over that..    So much time spent over Andre Drummond, who is  unplayable in the playoffs and generally one of the most overrated players in the NBA for the last several years running..  So many posts  about friggin Evan Fournier being much better than THJ .  Let's not kid ourselves ... most fans enjoy proposing trades than the actual games, and most of it is because they just like daydreaming about new toys to play with and work forward with the justifications from there.

(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]On converse, quit falling in love with other players and over valuing them and thinking they're automatic upgrades just because they play for another team.  Look at all the fawning over Josh Richardson last offseason.   Oh, he was just going to step in Day 1 and be better than all of the overrated non-Luka scrubs on our current roster.   Morey couldn't get him out of Philly fast enough, but Mav Fans thought he was this huge difference maker and instant upgrade just because he wasn't  one of the MBT guys.    Look at all the blubbering trade proposals over Buddy Hield, who  is at best no better than THJ and actually is paid $20 million a year.    So much time spent over Andrew Drummond, who is  unplayable in the playoffs.  So many posts  about friggin Evan Fournier being much better than THJ .  Let's not kid ourselves ... most fans enjoy proposing trades than the actual games, and most of it is because they just like daydreaming about new toys to play with and work forward with the justifications from there.

I'd like to like this twice. So,

like

(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]On converse, quit falling in love with other players and over valuing them and thinking they're automatic upgrades just because they play for another team.

I agree that posters need to stop doing this about players that are on par with ours. That's why I propose deals that use our players to get the best player in the deal type trades. Similar (in the opposite way) to what I want our FO to do with KP. Send him out as the best player in the trade and get back a couple players that move our "second best player" down the totem pole. Package Maxi and DFS for a best player in the trade guys. If they don't work out as the second or third best player on our championship team, trade them to get that next guy who is! Gain continuity once the top end is there and then go out and win the championship.

(06-04-2021, 11:51 AM)HanspardsShowerVoice Wrote: [ -> ]Utah is the #1 seed and they basically returned their entire roster from a team that got bounced in the 1st round of the playoffs last year. 

On converse, quit falling in love with other players and over valuing them and thinking they're automatic upgrades just because they play for another team.  Look at all the fawning over Josh Richardson last offseason.   Oh, he was just going to step in Day 1 and be better than all of the overrated non-Luka scrubs on our current roster.   Morey couldn't get him out of Philly fast enough, but Mav Fans thought he was this huge difference maker and instant upgrade just because he wasn't  one of the MBT guys.    Look at all the blubbering trade proposals over Buddy Hield, who  is at best no better than THJ and actually is paid $20 million a year AND you would have to trade assets to obtain over that..    So much time spent over Andre Drummond, who is  unplayable in the playoffs and generally one of the most overrated players in the NBA for the last several years running..  So many posts  about friggin Evan Fournier being much better than THJ .  Let's not kid ourselves ... most fans enjoy proposing trades than the actual games, and most of it is because they just like daydreaming about new toys to play with and work forward with the justifications from there.

Can't say you're wrong (except on your evaluation of Timothy's value which seems to be a little high). But the same has to be said about us falling in love with our own players. I've seen a lot of trades where we get Turner, Lavine, etc... when in reality we don't even have a package to land Aaron Gordon. Maxi and DFS fit really well with Luka but both can't dribble the ball, yet people are hesitant to put them in packages that land better players. Goal should be Championship, not super friends. I get that we need to keep Luka, but postseason success is a far better pitch than locker room chemistry. I'm sure Lowry would have loved to keep DeRozan and co. in Toronto, but it led them to a championship (obviously they got freaking Kawhi, so maybe not the best example). Now our FO thinks your way, nothing wrong with that. I'm sure we're retaining Timothy (to my disgust) and co. just like we did Burke/WCS. It's just not good enough IMO.

(06-04-2021, 12:33 PM)HAguiar95 Wrote: [ -> ]1 Maxi and DFS fit really well with Luka but both can't dribble the ball
2 yet people are hesitant to put them in packages that land better players. 

Not sure where you get the first. Maxi and DFS can both dribble the ball. At times they each attack the basket off pump fakes. I've read DFS played some point guard in college (or was it high school), and at times he brings the ball up the floor for the Mavs to give Luka a break.

Neither is an NBA point guard. Nor is either a player you'd depend on to create offense (although each can pass the ball as needed). But they have skills.

As for the second point, it's understandable that it makes no sense to give away good players on bargain deals for meh return. You have to have some bargain contracts, to amass enough talent to win big. Most ideas proposed here to include them are awful for the Mavs.

(06-04-2021, 12:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Not sure where you get the first. Maxi and DFS can both dribble the ball. At times they each attack the basket off pump fakes. DFS was a point guard in college.

Neither is an NBA point guard. Nor is either a player you'd depend on to create offense (although each can pass the ball as needed).

Really? I think it's just me then, but when I see them take a dribble I already think of a turnover.

(06-04-2021, 12:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]DFS was a point guard in college.

(06-04-2021, 12:46 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]1. Not sure where you get the first. Maxi and DFS can both dribble the ball. At times they each attack the basket off pump fakes. DFS was a point guard in college.

2. Neither is an NBA point guard. Nor is either a player you'd depend on to create offense (although each can pass the ball as needed).

3. As for the second point, it's understandable that it makes no sense to give away good players on bargain deals for meh return. You have to have some bargain contracts, to amass enough talent to win big. Most ideas proposed here to include them are awful for the Mavs.

1. Yes, just like any basketball player to ever play past middle school. Those guys can dribble in the layup line. Have a really hard time dribbling in slight traffic a better statement?

2. There are so many degrees of "dribbling" between NBA PG and where DFS and Maxi are, and both THJ and KP are closer to them than they are to the NBA PG.

3. There are very few trades proposed with Maxi and DFS in them. That's hesitant to put them in trades as HAguiar95 said originally.

I have seen that, or something of that ilk, written multiple times by Mav reporters in longer pieces about what the Mavs saw in DFS originally, when they pursued him as a FA. I don't recall the exact details, so maybe it was erroneous, but I have seen it more than once.

It should be informative that he brings the ball up the floor at times in NBA games. The impression he can't dribble the ball is clearly way off base.

(06-04-2021, 11:22 AM)dirkfansince1998 Wrote: [ -> ]Just finished todays episode. Put Boban on the untradeable list. Would be suprised if he isn´t back.

Glad to see someone join me on the Boban Untouchable train!