MavsBoard

(07-13-2022, 02:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]It's only my opinion, and I'm sure some will find it unreasonable, but once every opportunity to trade Brunson had passed (TDL, previous off season, whatever), with Luka's rookie max extension kicking in, I believe Cuban should've been prepared to go all the way to Brunson's max to keep him, if that's what it took. He clearly was not, and was just hoping no other team (that Brunson liked) would be able to make a compelling offer. I think Cuban believed that there'd be a dog-and-pony show of interest from either IND or DET, forcing Brunson's price up a little, and he'd re-sign here for about $19-20 million per. 

We'll never know the full extent of what trade opportunities came up for Brunson along the way leading up to this summer, and while you can convince me in a general sense that they might not have been very good opportunities when weighed against the underlined sentence above, you'll never convince me they weren't presented with an opportunity at some point better than losing him for nothing, which, while unfathomable for most of the fans, seems to have been a very real concern for quite awhile. 

Now, maybe willingness to go to Brunson's max wouldn't have made a difference. I can't prove that one way or the other. But, if I'm Cuban and I learn that Brunson is going to NY come hell or high water, you'd better believe I'm getting it out there that "we offered the most we possibly could. More than any other offer, by far. Dude just wanted to go to NY. We wish him well." 

We never heard that. Instead, we got the weak (and false) "we never got to make an offer." If you think Brunson didn't have a clear picture of what both Dallas and NY were offering (and each of the teams a fairly clear picture of what the other was offering) before making this decision, I have a bridge to sell you. 

This spin control approach, to me, signals that in addition to all of the NY connections for Brunson, apparently going back to childhood dreams, the Knicks also valued him more and were very willing to go north of the Mavs' self-imposed price range to prove it. Of course the Mavs lost him, given all of that. And, it's hard to imagine that they didn't have a pretty clear picture of what was about to happen beforehand, given that they're on the inside of all of this. 

Once every opportunity to trade Brunson had passed, with the Mavs' cap situation the way it is (and likely to be for awhile unless they take several steps back with their roster, which is now feeling all too possible in the coming years) I don't think they could afford to let Brunson go, no matter how "overpaid" the contract would've made him. That's the bottom line for me. 

If they had made a better offer than NY, and he had STILL chosen the Knicks, my unhappiness might've been directed more towards Brunson and less towards the Mavs in that scenario.

That's the most depressing version of events, and the most likely - that Cuban (and Nico, if you will) got outchessed. The Mavs' reported confidence in keeping him up to two weeks prior to FA is troubling. 

At the risk of redundancy, Cuban doesn't know professional basketball from his ass or a hole in the ground. You see, there were these games in May called the NBA playoffs. Had Cuban watched those games, he would have known definitively that the idea of keeping Brunson at their self-imposed price limit was intelligence-insultingly ridiculous.

(07-13-2022, 03:24 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]Cuban (and Nico, if you will) got outchessed.

I'd say this is undeniably true, regardless of which interpretation of events makes sense to each person, individually. The variable is how big of a problem you believe this result will be for the team, moving forward. But if anyone is claiming this played out the way Cuban/Harrison planned, they're just incorrect. There's literally no way that could possibly be true.

(07-13-2022, 03:28 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]But if anyone is claiming this played out the way Cuban/Harrison planned, they're just incorrect. There's literally no way that could possibly be true.

Even Skin readily admitted that the Mavs took the risk of trying to trade JB and they failed in getting a deal they thought they could get. It backfired and here we are.

But I think you can recognize that fact while also believing that they do have a back-up plan that they like very much (which Skin also said). 

Let's see if they can execute said back-up plan. 

And since you sort of accused me of being a flip-flopper, let me go on the record that even though I think they CAN go into the season with the roster as is, that I will in fact be in the camp that believes they "failed" this summer if there is no trade that happens before training camp. I think they still will have a chance to recover/improve the roster at the TDL (so hope will not all be lost), but without a trade before training camp I will be in the camp that believes the summer itself was ultimately a failure.

(07-13-2022, 02:50 PM)KillerLeft Wrote: [ -> ]I believe Cuban should've been prepared to go all the way to Brunson's max to keep him, if that's what it took. 

"we offered the most we possibly could. More than any other offer, by far. Dude just wanted to go to NY. We wish him well." 

I don't think they could afford to let Brunson go, no matter how "overpaid" the contract would've made him. That's the bottom line for me. 

Yes sir!  KL w/ 90% jabs connected while I have a weak and brittle right hook.

(07-13-2022, 03:38 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Even Skin readily admitted that the Mavs took the risk of trying to trade JB and they failed in getting a deal they thought they could get. It backfired and here we are.

But I think you can recognize that fact while also believing that they do have a back-up plan that they like very much (which Skin also said). 

Let's see if they can execute said back-up plan. 

And since you sort of accused me of being a flip-flopper, let me go on the record that even though I think they CAN go into the season with the roster as is, that I will in fact be in the camp that believes they "failed" this summer if there is no trade that happens before training camp. I think they still will have a chance to recover/improve the roster at the TDL (so hope will not all be lost), but without a trade before training camp I will be in the camp that believes the summer itself was ultimately a failure.

I think there are three different and distinct possibilities here - 
1) The Mavs already have a trade lined up but have to wait on eventualities from other teams to complete it.
2) The Mavs recognize their need to do a trade, if not more than one, and are working on it.
3) The Mavs think they're fine as they are.

Thing is, if it's 1), I think there's a strong possibility that it falls through, because Mavs gonna Kangz. If it's 2), I'll bet good money that they'll search high and low, not realizing how little value their "assets" have, and fail to make a trade. And if I'm right on both of those, we'll hear that it was always 3), with the FO completely blind to how bad that looks to informed fans.

(07-13-2022, 04:08 PM)Scott41theMavs Wrote: [ -> ]I think there are three different and distinct possibilities here - 
1) The Mavs already have a trade lined up but have to wait on eventualities from other teams to complete it.
2) The Mavs recognize their need to do a trade, if not more than one, and are working on it.
3) The Mavs think they're fine as they are.

Thing is, if it's 1), I think there's a strong possibility that it falls through, because Mavs gonna Kangz. If it's 2), I'll bet good money that they'll search high and low, not realizing how little value their "assets" have, and fail to make a trade. And if I'm right on both of those, we'll hear that it was always 3), with the FO completely blind to how bad that looks to informed fans.

Well Skin (who many say is a mouthpiece of the organization) very clearly is on the record saying it is #1 or #2.

(07-13-2022, 04:10 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Well Skin (who many say is a mouthpiece of the organization) very clearly is on the record saying it is #1 or #2.

...until that falls through and it was always #3.

(07-13-2022, 03:38 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Even Skin readily admitted that the Mavs took the risk of trying to trade JB and they failed in getting a deal they thought they could get. It backfired and here we are.

But I think you can recognize that fact while also believing that they do have a back-up plan that they like very much (which Skin also said). 

Let's see if they can execute said back-up plan. 

And since you sort of accused me of being a flip-flopper, let me go on the record that even though I think they CAN go into the season with the roster as is, that I will in fact be in the camp that believes they "failed" this summer if there is no trade that happens before training camp. I think they still will have a chance to recover/improve the roster at the TDL (so hope will not all be lost), but without a trade before training camp I will be in the camp that believes the summer itself was ultimately a failure.

Your POV is fair, but I don't believe Skin ACTUALLY meant 'they do have [present tense] a back-up plan that they like very much' ... In listening to EXACTLY what he said, it sounded more like he was saying (with ALL of his words in context, not just selected ones) they HAD [past tense] a backup plan, but that its viability had became very questionable once the Durant situation messed with the NBA landscape.

If I can speculate a step farther, and based on how Skin said it and what else he said, I think Nico's "backup plan" was to SNT Brunson (should he decide he preferred NY) and reap some assets by helping NY clear the last cap hurdles.

In an interview released today on NBA.com, I think Nico himself inferred there's nothing that they are expecting at this point.

"Q: But how are you weighing whether to pursue a major deal or stand pat with what you have?
Nico: You’re always looking to upgrade your roster. But it depends what the big deal is."

If they are working on anything in particular, with an expectation there's a deal waiting to be done, imo there's no hint of any of that in his words.

(07-13-2022, 04:56 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Your POV is fair, but I don't believe Skin ACTUALLY said 'they do have a back-up plan that they like very much (which Skin also said)' ... In listening to EXACTLY what he said, it sounded more like he was saying (with ALL of his words in context, not just selected ones) they HAD a backup plan, but that its viability became very questionable once the Durant situation messed with the NBA landscape.

Here are his exact words from that interview that I am referring to:

"I know for a fact they have a plan they feel good about that entails losing Jalen...that may have been muddied by the Durant news...they wanted to get assets for JB, they didn't want to pay more than $22M, they knew they were probably going to lose him"

(07-13-2022, 04:59 PM)Kammrath Wrote: [ -> ]Here are his exact words from that interview that I am referring to:

"I know for a fact they have a plan they feel good about that entails losing Jalen...that may have been muddied by the Durant news...they wanted to get assets for JB, they didn't want to pay more than $22M, they knew they were probably going to lose him"

 

Kamm, that is NOT the exact, full, wording of what Skin said. You have edited out words, that imo call into question whether there's actually a plan still going right now.

And if Nico has some sort of plan in the works, he's giving no hint.

I would also call into question Skin's thesis that a wing would have to be the highest priority, which he openly based on the observation that they began the offseason by speaking of a wing and hadn't gotten 1 yet. But at that beginning point, they were working under the assumption that Brunson was returning. Skin failed to note that MAYBE getting another PG type had become as high or higher on their shopping list now.

(07-13-2022, 05:22 PM)ItsGoTime Wrote: [ -> ]So the “late August” thing has been mentioned quite a few times around here. When it was first said, there was lots of speculation about Wood being available around that time. That would be 1 reason there is a holdup. There was no other speculation beyond that though. 

What if the holdup is from the other team waiting for a player to be available then? There’s got to be more players that fit that criteria right? Does anyone know who those players might be? Seeing those names might help some dot connections. That type of deal could still be “muddied” from the KD sweepstakes too.

The late August thing is way overblown imo.

It began with Skin's throwaway mention of some of the expiring contracts the Mavs could pile together if needed - he first started by talking about Powell and how he's not needed and is an expiring, then slid into a mention of other expiring contracts (Wood, who can be aggregated Aug 23, and Kleber). Also tossed THJ into the pot of pieces they could use. But later he talked about the value of Wood and Kleber to the Mavs this season, which basically contradicted any idea of them being used in a trade.

Later the newbs (Mavs-wise) he was talking with asked him when a big trade ahead would happen, would it be during the season, and he said he figures anything would happen by the end of August. That's just a knowledgeable person's timeline, because it's the practical limit to get someone here to be part of the start of things for 2022-23, since a team starts assembling players and working together in Sept.

With 2 mentions of August, it had many writing down "August trade is coming!" I don't think he really thinks that, however.

(07-13-2022, 05:18 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm, that is NOT the exact, full, wording of what Skin said. You have edited out words, that imo call into question whether there's actually a plan still going right now.

What do you think is wrong or misunderstood about this sentence?

"I know for a fact they have a plan they feel good about that entails losing Jalen."

He then raises the possibility that the KD situation could "muddy" it, yes, but he states on the date of the interview (July 1?) that he knows "for a fact" they "have" (present tense) a plan they feel good about.

Kamm, what's wrong is that you keep conveniently leaving out important additional words, that say otherwise. It's not being honest when you say this is EXACTLY what Skin said and then leave out part of it that is very relevant (especially when the parts omitted point to something different).

I would prefer your pov is correct. But use the WHOLE paragraph of what Skin said, and let it speak for what it says as a whole. I can cherry-pick just like you did, but select different words, and focus only on them, and then it says something different.

Here, use this quote instead, and where are we? "They had a second plan in which if they lose Jalen, we've got an alternate plan. Now that may have been muddied by the Kevin Durant news, but they wanted to get assets for Jalen Brunson. They didn't want to pay him more than 22. They knew that they were probably going to lose him. And it sucks. It sucks to lose an asset."

If there was a plan B, I think it was tied to a Brunson SNT in which they would use that foundation to acquire another asset(s), not from NY. Obviously that ship has sailed, if that was their plan.

(07-13-2022, 06:02 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Here, use this quote instead, and where are we? "They had a second plan in which if they lose Jalen, we've got an alternate plan. Now that may have been muddied by the Kevin Durant news, but they wanted to get assets for Jalen Brunson. They didn't want to pay him more than 22. They knew that they were probably going to lose him. And it sucks. It sucks to lose an asset."

None of that says anything different than what I am saying. 

He says, "I know for a fact they have a plan they feel good about." 

Then "They HAD [his use of past tense is just highlighting that this is something they have had working for awhile] a second plan in which they lose Brunson" (same point as the first sentence). 

Then, "We've [back to present tense because the plan is still in place] got an alternate plan." 

Then like I have been saying, "Now that may have been muddied by the KD news." This is the caveat. The KD news might mess up the plan some or totally. 

This all points to as of July 1 the Mavs ACTIVELY HAVING a second plan in place.

The "But they wanted to get assets for Brunson" is him backing up to what he had been saying BEFORE talking about this back plan. Hium referring to them wanting to trade JB at the TDL before which he had talked about before this.

OMG will the 2 of you (FG and Kamm) please put it to rest.  Who cares how we got here as Mavs fans?  The bottom line is the new MBT botched the whole handling of Brunson's last year and free agency.  You can call it plan A if you like, but it is over - period - end of story.  And if you think plan B was to find a Brunson replacement via a JB S&T with the Knicks/others - well, I got news for everyone.  That's over as well.

So now all we Mavs Fans are left with Hope - hope for a plan C.  Love all the posts from everyone on what Ya'll think is plane C.  Doesn't really matter how we Mavs fan got to this point.  I'm pretty darn sure all of us are Hoping the is something more this offseason.

Mavsboard.com is still the first site I come to for all my Mavs news.  

PS: Still love the Wood trade but confused on all the other FA signings.

Kamm, I think it was incredibly disingenuous that when I said Skin said X, and you knew exactly what I was talking about and why, you used your selected-words-"quote" instead to try to shoot down what I was saying. You can't say it's an exact quote, when it's not, and it be honest. You only provided some of the words, chosen selectively.

...They had a second plan in which if they lose Jalen, we've got an alternate plan. Now that may have been muddied by the Kevin Durant news, but they wanted to get assets for Jalen Brunson. They didn't want to pay him more than 22. They knew that they were probably going to lose him. And it sucks. It sucks to lose an asset."

You can keep asserting that the full quote, and the partial quote that you want to use, says the same thing. But when I read it all, I don't think it does.

IMO the use of past tense is an indication that it WAS their plan, but it didn't work (for the reasons that he provided, and I have been mentioning). Notice how he describes said plan -- it was a plan to "get assets for Jalen Brunson." That ship has sailed, unfortunately. At this point, there is no way at all to get assets for Jalen Brunson. That plan is over.

Skin even acknowledges that it was over in his statement -- "It sucks to lose an asset."

Why did Skin say at first they HAVE a plan, and then later shift to "had"? I think the initial words were mostly a slip of the lip, or maybe a slight fudging of the truth, after which he thought better of misconstruing the situation and worded it deliberately as being in the past.

I don't disagree they HAD a backup plan on July 1, and in fact for quite a few days thereafter. But I think by the time of this conversation, it had failed already, and I think Skin's use of past tense was his subtle admission to that. I think Nico's comments appear to reveal the same thinking -- ie, we are LOOKING for something good, and hope we find something we like, but who knows.

One note that is more in line with your pov. It's interesting that Tim Cato seems to surmise (just from reading the situation, and not from any actual knowledge), that they must have some sort of trade ahead before the season. He doesn't think this roster can possibly be complete as is. But his guesswork has them primarily looking for an offense creator, not a wing. And like others have already noted, he sees THJ/Powell (one or both) as likely pieces that would be used.

We'll see what happens.

(07-13-2022, 08:53 PM)F Gump Wrote: [ -> ]Kamm, I think it was incredibly disingenuous that when I said Skin said X, and you knew exactly what I was talking about and why, you used your selected-words-"quote" instead to try to shoot down what I was saying. You can't say it's an exact quote, when it's not, and it be honest. You only provided some of the words, chosen selectively.

It is not disingenuous. I had the elipses ("...") in there. I don't think the part I had originally redacted misrepresented his point at all. He was speaking non-linearly, referencing backward to different things (hence the past tense) and so I just originally cut those out because they distracted from his main point.

We are obviously reading him differently, but I am not misquoting him. 

I think the first sentence says it all, "I know for a fact they have a plan they feel good about." To me that is everything (the hermeneutical key for understanding everything else he is saying). It sets what he is talking about as a speaker and he is speaking in the present tense and claiming it as a fact, not speculation. I don't know any other way to understand that sentence unless he misspoke either accidentally or purposely. But I am assuming he didn't as he didn't correct himself and everything else he said lines up with that IMO.

Again the past tense I read as him referring to this plan as being in place BEFORE the news leaked that JB was leaving and then the "wanted" was back in reference to him saying the Mavs chose not to extend him in the summer because they wanted to turn him into assets at the TDL. Which was a mistake, a big loss and fail, losing the asset for nothing. 

Anyways, we will see if Skin knows what he is talking about or not. He might be lying and sunshine pumping to ease the pain of the fans. But I personally doubt that.

(07-13-2022, 08:47 PM)chaparral Wrote: [ -> ]So now all we Mavs Fans are left with Hope - hope for a plan C.  Love all the posts from everyone on what Ya'll think is plane C.  Doesn't really matter how we Mavs fan got to this point.  I'm pretty darn sure all of us are Hoping the is something more this offseason.

I'm at this point as well.

We can speculate all we want but Brunson is gone. NYK overpaid. That is that. 

Now I hope NYK gets Mitchell so Brunson never really gets his opportunity of being the lead guard. Grass isn't always greener on the other side!

(07-14-2022, 01:22 AM)SleepingHero Wrote: [ -> ]Now I hope NYK gets Mitchell so Brunson never really gets his opportunity of being the lead guard. Grass isn't always greener on the other side!